How he got away without jail time is beyond me.
Everybody knows it was a huge scam.
Martin Grunin - Facebook Ads Fraud - Bank Fraud - mgrunin
- Thread starter BigWill
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How he got away without jail time is beyond me.
Everybody knows it was a huge scam.
Maybe you're right. I'm not condoning what he did. I'm just trying to see this from a legal and game theory perspective.
Whatever he's got left is sitting in a bone yard, his coinbase account or up his nose... which is touch to get at, metabolically-speaking. He pissed a quarter mil in the mkts alone (don't ask). His Citi account has less than a grand in it.
Like the guy ever considered paying FB? In the front door and out the back. The scam is predicated on a short turnaround. Recovery is not an option here.
FB shits more than $350K in catering and utilities on a daily basis. The billable hours on the legal-side will exceed the money he stole. The publicity (not to fuck FB on receivables) is more valuable than the bad-press related to the incompetence (on the receivables).
Like the guy ever considered paying FB? In the front door and out the back. The scam is predicated on a short turnaround. Recovery is not an option here.
FB shits more than $350K in catering and utilities on a daily basis. The billable hours on the legal-side will exceed the money he stole. The publicity (not to fuck FB on receivables) is more valuable than the bad-press related to the incompetence (on the receivables).
i'm in shock here, it's like been told santa isn't real.
last time i paid attention to mgrunin was in the big facebook thread around 2010/2011 when he was a lot more humble and seemed like he was balling while i was struggling with my dating ads. who was his tag team partner again, they seemed to run campaigns together?
very fucking easy to run good campaigns when you're not paying for the traffic! i think he might have got away with it if he frauded to register the accounts and increase limits but still paid for the traffic somehow. but just not paying the bills and expecting to get away with it?! i'm tempted to do some shady things in android apps these days and i'm going out of my way to cover all my tracks but still terrified to pull the trigger. but it's childs play compared to this straight up fraud!
last time i paid attention to mgrunin was in the big facebook thread around 2010/2011 when he was a lot more humble and seemed like he was balling while i was struggling with my dating ads. who was his tag team partner again, they seemed to run campaigns together?
very fucking easy to run good campaigns when you're not paying for the traffic! i think he might have got away with it if he frauded to register the accounts and increase limits but still paid for the traffic somehow. but just not paying the bills and expecting to get away with it?! i'm tempted to do some shady things in android apps these days and i'm going out of my way to cover all my tracks but still terrified to pull the trigger. but it's childs play compared to this straight up fraud!
It seems to me that while Willms scam was obviously on a much larger scale, putting him in jail was always going to be difficult. For the most part the allegations against him were related to consumer fraud. His TOS, while scammy as fuck, stated that customers would continued to be billed after the free trial. Was it shady as shit and unethical? Yes. Was it illegal? Probably. Were any of those things able to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court? Looks like that's a no.
But the allegations against Grunin are a completely different ballgame. I wouldn't be surprised if facebook would agree to a settlement for the monetary losses they suffered, but if what they allege in their filing is true and provable, he's probably going to face criminal charges as well. If true it's exactly like Hurr Durr said above. He commited identity theft, some form of bank fraud, probably a form of wire fraud. Not only that, but if/when he is charged criminally he's probably looking at federal charges.
And it's not just Facebook that's he's going to have an issue with. I wouldn't be surprised if the companies and people he's alleged to have impersonated sue him too. Then there's the criminal complaints they can go to the authorities with as well. Like someone mentioned, this goes beyond money and beyond some TOS. These allegations are some early day Frank Abagnale level scamming. The feds don't like that shit.
But the allegations against Grunin are a completely different ballgame. I wouldn't be surprised if facebook would agree to a settlement for the monetary losses they suffered, but if what they allege in their filing is true and provable, he's probably going to face criminal charges as well. If true it's exactly like Hurr Durr said above. He commited identity theft, some form of bank fraud, probably a form of wire fraud. Not only that, but if/when he is charged criminally he's probably looking at federal charges.
And it's not just Facebook that's he's going to have an issue with. I wouldn't be surprised if the companies and people he's alleged to have impersonated sue him too. Then there's the criminal complaints they can go to the authorities with as well. Like someone mentioned, this goes beyond money and beyond some TOS. These allegations are some early day Frank Abagnale level scamming. The feds don't like that shit.
You better read that court paper linked some post ago.
Hurr-Durr is right - they are out for blood. They want his head not his money.
That is not a "he scamed us, we want our money back", thats a "we present you an internet criminal".
I remember the case from ebay against the digital point owner.
This looks alot more worse on the first glance.
Facebook sneeze $350K brah ffs.
I highly DOUBT the financial loss is the motive for FB here.
Oh man. I'm having the worst week of my life and this just made me smile, is that sad? So what will mgrunin new username be this time?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he brag about buying those $25 American Express gift cards and entering them on rebill offers? Then he got a bunch of shit on here about doing that (as he should have)? I don't think he will ever learn.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he brag about buying those $25 American Express gift cards and entering them on rebill offers? Then he got a bunch of shit on here about doing that (as he should have)? I don't think he will ever learn.
Hate hearing this about Martin, but at the same time every time I hear about something like this it stirs me up inside. Helps me remember that sleeping well at night is more important than an extra couple of bucks. Makes me remember to not get too carried away.
Either way, with this kids hussle, if he doesn't whack himself he'll be back in a couple of years better than ever. How many business husslers have gone broke and lost it all many times just to come back again and again.
Either way, with this kids hussle, if he doesn't whack himself he'll be back in a couple of years better than ever. How many business husslers have gone broke and lost it all many times just to come back again and again.
The point is that he (insert metaphor) robbed a bank. It wasn't wit, intellect or hustle. What skill does it take to use an Exacto-knife?
Right, and I didn't say they would settle. I said I wouldn't be surprised if they did. I think I'm pretty clear on that between what I've posted in both of the threads surrounding this.
In any event, the civil filing isn't even that interesting. It's the potential criminal charges that he could face. And really, that's probably the biggest reason facebook filed their claim anyway. It's going to be easier to bring criminal charges against him now. Having him go to jail is the blood they want. No one, not facebook and not the public, gives a shit if he gets caught and has to repay some money plus damages. But sending someone to jail is a different story. People take notice at that. They don't need to follow through with the lawsuit for that, it just helped get the ball moving faster on any potential criminal investigation. And that's why I wouldn't be surprised if they settled. ffs. brah.
Negative option and other boilerplate scams (fine print) are usually mediated with settlements. You have to enter your card number, so the consumer is an active (and arguably, willing) participant. The notional sums are huge, but individually small. You gotta pay the class-action lawyers.
A dad of one of my kid's friends scammed 1000s with $30MM in fake govt grants. The difference is that this guy pissed it, so he's got a Fed judgement for $30MM and can't hold a checking account in his name. His kid dresses like a vagrant and comes to our house for dinner.
You'd be surprised how many ways it can bite you in the ass, money or no money. The Feds believe in Karmic debt.
A dad of one of my kid's friends scammed 1000s with $30MM in fake govt grants. The difference is that this guy pissed it, so he's got a Fed judgement for $30MM and can't hold a checking account in his name. His kid dresses like a vagrant and comes to our house for dinner.
You'd be surprised how many ways it can bite you in the ass, money or no money. The Feds believe in Karmic debt.
Trader kings, death sentence from FB, muhammad ali shows up.
I can't wait to read on. So much for this work day.
I had to remember my old password to reset my expired password just to post in this thread,
LOL.
But for reals, who the fuck frauds a company like facebook out of $350k by impersonating real companies. Shits nutso.
I have to think whoever approved those accounts is a complete moron. I mean is there no phone calls? no reply emails for confirmation?
I could care less about selling accounts, that shits just tacked on there for good measure. The only reason this is happening is because the dumbass impersonated real companies to open credit accounts.
LOL.
But for reals, who the fuck frauds a company like facebook out of $350k by impersonating real companies. Shits nutso.
I have to think whoever approved those accounts is a complete moron. I mean is there no phone calls? no reply emails for confirmation?
I could care less about selling accounts, that shits just tacked on there for good measure. The only reason this is happening is because the dumbass impersonated real companies to open credit accounts.
What I'd really like to know is what evidence was actually collected to make this stand up in court? If it's like everyone here is saying, the sky is literally falling, jail, felonies, fraud etc...Someone tell me WHY the fuck didn't facebook go to the police/FBI, they go after crimes in the 10~K, wouldn't they have stepped up to the plate to help collect evidence PRE waving a giant red flag so Grunin has time to wipe most of it?
How can they prove it was Grunin sitting at the computer/registering those accounts? Unless they had a secret warrant to collect evidence pre-trial, what's to stop him from wiping most of such evidence?
If they can't prove the above beyond reasonable doubt, wouldn't the case falter? Is the plan just to slam everything they think he did against him and go for some kind of plea deal to get a precedent or example out of him?
Grunin seemed like a smart guy, did he really think he was above getting nailed for doing something on this scale, what was his exit plan? He seemed to genuinely enjoy helping out other members here, sure his ego was a bit much, but at least he got a lot of people thinking about money/investing... This isn't saying anything evidence wise, but it begs the question 'why bother?' Was WF in for a long con stemming from years of rep building, really?
Why does half of FB's lawsuit include bits from their TOS? TOS's aren't the law, and they're very shaky in courts. Are they hoping to create precedents to legitimize them with this case? If so that means all of us here are susceptible to a slew of additional laws that are every bit as legitimate as standard ones simply for a 1 second action of clicking OK on a website TOS that no one ever reads, a bit scary eh?
Nearly everyone put their favorite pair of righteous panties when the only thing we have to go on is a well written statement by FB and a NYPost article. I'd agree with most of you, if we could make a reasonable assessment of the proof.
Either way, cases like this are another hit against the IM industry, no greater repercussions can come than from the likes of corporations with endless money and governments with endless hopes of creating new laws, tit for tat.
How can they prove it was Grunin sitting at the computer/registering those accounts? Unless they had a secret warrant to collect evidence pre-trial, what's to stop him from wiping most of such evidence?
If they can't prove the above beyond reasonable doubt, wouldn't the case falter? Is the plan just to slam everything they think he did against him and go for some kind of plea deal to get a precedent or example out of him?
Grunin seemed like a smart guy, did he really think he was above getting nailed for doing something on this scale, what was his exit plan? He seemed to genuinely enjoy helping out other members here, sure his ego was a bit much, but at least he got a lot of people thinking about money/investing... This isn't saying anything evidence wise, but it begs the question 'why bother?' Was WF in for a long con stemming from years of rep building, really?
Why does half of FB's lawsuit include bits from their TOS? TOS's aren't the law, and they're very shaky in courts. Are they hoping to create precedents to legitimize them with this case? If so that means all of us here are susceptible to a slew of additional laws that are every bit as legitimate as standard ones simply for a 1 second action of clicking OK on a website TOS that no one ever reads, a bit scary eh?
Nearly everyone put their favorite pair of righteous panties when the only thing we have to go on is a well written statement by FB and a NYPost article. I'd agree with most of you, if we could make a reasonable assessment of the proof.
Either way, cases like this are another hit against the IM industry, no greater repercussions can come than from the likes of corporations with endless money and governments with endless hopes of creating new laws, tit for tat.
You mean a smart exit plan like he executed in his trading thread?
I am pretty sure that Bernard Madoff is smarter as most people here.
You will not find any sane answers why he did what he did.
To assume that people act always rational is wrong.
And if you think about your life then there is a big chance you will find a point where you think today "man..."..
Keep in mind that the dude is held responsible for the accounts he sold, meaning that the unpaid balances are most likely from affiliates he sold them to.
Making a profit with dating on FB is not that fucking hard to do, or at least it never was until recently.
I will never understand people that flaunt their "wealth" while they are obviously playing with fire. That shit should be rule #1, the less attention you get the better it is.
While this was stepping over certain fucked up boundaries I still don't understand all the hate towards this guy. Spamming google to make coin on putting people in debt with loan offers isn't much better moral wise and convincing 50+ ladies that there is an anti-age cream that actually works while re-billing the fuck out of them for crazy amounts isn't either.
Seems to be quit easy telling your self "glad I never crossed that lawyer the fuck up limit".
/
yes, if it were really bad he would have simply been raided and arrested. this may go to a grand jury like during Shawn Hogan's cookie stuffing incident.
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