My Conversation with Mark Karpeles of MtGox

I am willing to accept that Bitcoin is a protocol in that aspect.

However, that does not mean that it automatically has power to the same degree as http.
Same degree now? Of course not. Holding bitcoin right now is comparable to buying a CD player in 1995 with only 100 CD titles available so far. There isn't much to do with it yet, but everyone who had a CD player was quite certain that they weren't ever going to touch their cassette collection again.


The real power in this scenario are the payment processors of cryptocurrency.

If Coinbase gets mass acceptance, consumers and merchants will make transactions through it.
There certainly is some centralization at the payment processing level, but it won't be that way forever.

Bitcoin has within it everything you need to process all payments already. Coinbase isn't needed at all, except of course as a way to make things easier on everyone. It's just a cleaner UI. It can and will often be replaced by cleaner and cleaner UIs to bitcoin until they are so thin and perfected that there won't be a company with any overhead behind them. It'll just be code in a bitcoin wallet client.


As for Merchants accepting Bitcoin, that part hasn't actually happened.
I can't agree to that. It's super-early and we've already got a dozen public corps accepting bitcoin, and pretty much the entire porn and gambling industries.

Between coinbase and bitpay, they're reporting like 45,000 vendors have already signed up. You can browse through 4,300+ non-adult merchants over at coinosphere.com right now. You can even see over 3,200 of the brick-and-mortar only stores all mapped out at the Coinmap.

Considering how far bitcoin development has to go before your grandma feels comfortable using it, I'd say this is quite an awesome sign.


Payment Processors like CoinBase can accept separate protocols simultaneously. This is exactly why saying "Bitcoin is a protocol" holds little weight. Protocols are easily interchangeable in this system.
There is no such centralization that you are crediting coinbase with here. In fact Bitpay may have more customers than coinbase, and blockchain.info has even more merchants using their API that aren't even customers... They just offer free software that facilitates merchant and user adoption.

This isn't a concern in any way. Free software will simply be added on top of bitcoin to replace all of this in time.


Why do billionaires and hedge fund managers want to invest in a currency that makes early miner "Joe Bitcoin" a trillionaire overnight? (Joe Bitcoin would instantly become one of the most powerful people in the world)

They could (and have a vested interest in) making their own coin.
This is an interesting point. I believe that the genius set of incentives that Satoshi figured out from the beginning are more than enough to ensure that this isn't a problem, but it's fun to speculate what exactly will happen to the millionaire that wants to make it big in crypto, but doesn't follow the tried-and-true path.

Remember, the first was the Winklevii. They put their 1% of all bitcoins into a trust and applied to the SEC to sell shares of that trust to mainstream investors.

Lots of other millionaires, like Kevin O'Leary and Marc Andresson have chosen to either invest in bitcoin itself, or invest in companies like bitpay and coinbase.

But let's say someone like Bill Gates comes along and decides he wants to start his own cryptocurrency and beat bitcoin with it.

I have no doubt he could get it off the ground to compete with other alts. Somewhere between namecoin and auroracoin is where it would likely go, if he takes the time to pump it with proper launch tactics at the beginning.

Then he's got to work on his three pillars. He has to push his coins to user acceptance, perhaps through tons of contests and giveaways. He's got to persuade miners to mine it, maybe by having great stats on the coin like big blocks often. And then he's got the hardest task to do; convince merchants to start accepting it other than the ones in his own business.

But even if he bribes a shitload of visible merchants to accept his coin, his problem becomes that he himself is a central point of failure! Bitcoin has no central point that can sink it. Gatescoin would live or die by Bill Gates' popularity.

If that weren't enough, the problem that may concern a guy like Gates even more about having his own altcoin is that it's out of his control entirely. These people like to have some say in their investments... But if he makes it open source and peer-to-peer, it's completely outside of his control and his worst nightmare will be the day some child porn peddler soils his coin's good name.

(And it should go without saying that any cryptocurrency that is Not open source and P2P is dead in the water and can never take off.)

So no, the rich don't seem to have any choice but to race each other into bitcoin. It'll happen as soon as their other options start looking shitty in comparison.


Hashing power is nice, but most miners have no "brand loyalty" to Bitcoin. Show them something consistently making more profit, and watch their ASICs and GPUs slowly migrate away...
This is the part of Satoshi's genius that makes me smile every time. They don't need brand loyalty. They want money.

How much money can you make mining doge or litecoin with an investment of, say, $20,000 right now?

If you put that investment into cutting-edge bitcoin mining rigs right now, you will most definitely make far more. The simple, unavoidable fact is that the safer your network is (more hashing power) the more the product is worth, and therefore the more profitable for miners... This is a positive feedback loop that hasn't had a chance of being broken for years now.


Bitcoin isn't invincible. There needs to be a healthy amount of acceptance that it MIGHT fail IMO.
I'm ok with people and governments thinking so. ;)


It would be ignorant for me to say I know with certainty where any of this will be in 3+ years. There's just wayy too many unresolved variables.
I don't claim to know what the price will be in 3 years, tons of political force on this planet will have a say in that.

What I do claim with pride is the fact that adoption will be FAR higher than it is now by then.

There are currently about 1 million bitcoin holders in the US. That's 1/330th of the country.

Even if obomba bans bitcoin outright, the network effect is still in play, but the application would have to transfer to less-mainstream markets. Therefore I'd guesstimate about 12 Million under an illegal bitcoin here, and 100 million otherwise.

Eventually, making it illegal isn't going to slow it down for long. See: 21st amendment for more on that subject.

I honestly expect it may be illegal for a short while while; that's just what desperate, broke countries try to do on their dying breath: control the money supply in every last way. This time around it will be different, because no one can control the flow of bitcoins.


Like Marc Andresson says, "its the biggest thing to happen to the internet since the internet."
Marc's a great guy to have on our side; but that's kind of a limited view... The internet is only a flow of information, through which you can lie. Bitcoin however is an uncensorable flow of only truthful information, and all commerce too.
 


Another $600k Hack?

bitcoin-flexcoin-hack-closes.si.jpg


Bitcoin bank folds after hacker robbery ? RT Business
 
There are some critical systemic problems in the Bitcoin market. I believe the technology itself will have a major impact on our future, but ignoring these problems, the way many Bitcoin fanatics have because of financial and ideological conflict, seriously hinders this technology.
 
There are some critical systemic problems in the Bitcoin market. I believe the technology itself will have a major impact on our future, but ignoring these problems, the way many Bitcoin fanatics have because of financial and ideological conflict, seriously hinders this technology.
Agreed.

I just read this article: The Inside Story of Mt. Gox, Bitcoin's $460 Million Disaster | Wired Enterprise | Wired.com
To sum up the article, basically Karpeles (Mt Gox ceo) is a young 28 yr old tech geek, great with coding, etc, but was incompetent in bizness management. Running a bizness, let alone a multi-million dollar finance/exchange definitely wasn't his forte.

Which brings up the catch-22 problem of delegating, hiring someone who can. Most bitcoin users/fanatics tend to be libetarian/anarcho-capitalists (The Demographics Of Bitcoin | Zero Hedge). But the people who you'll need to hire who can competently run such a large enterprize would be from the "establishment" they hate.
 
Another $600k Hack?

bitcoin-flexcoin-hack-closes.si.jpg
This one I'm quite happy about.

The idiotic, uber-statist morons running it decided that bitcoin needed a centralized bank to work properly and set out to be that bank, sans the FDIC insurance part. Lol...

From their site: "Not only are we a centralized location to store all your bitcoins (so that you can access them from any web connected device), we’re also the first bitcoin bank."

This was pure good news to bitcoiners; and hey, look at the price still going up. ;)


There are some critical systemic problems in the Bitcoin market. I believe the technology itself will have a major impact on our future, but ignoring these problems, the way many Bitcoin fanatics have because of financial and ideological conflict, seriously hinders this technology.
Is this another "bitcoin needs regulation" thing? I swear to jeebus I'll barf all over this thread if you take us down that road again.

I don't know any bitcoin fanatics who aren't hard at work trying to make bitcoin easier to use and more accessible to everyone. That includes me... I don't spend all my time arguing about it, and I'm sure the other fanatics aren't doing so either... If for no other reason than they want to get their hands on more coin.


Says right there on your source page:

SPDY does not replace HTTP; it modifies the way HTTP requests and responses are sent over the wire.[1] This means that all existing server-side applications can be used without modification if a SPDY-compatible translation layer is put in place. When sent over SPDY, HTTP requests are processed, tokenized, simplified and compressed.

Looks like a protocol for wrapping the old protocol. Interesting, but not a replacement. It would be like if someone made a new protocol to wrap bitcoin in that gave it the power of having faster confirmation times.
 
It can and will often be replaced by cleaner and cleaner UIs to bitcoin until they are so thin and perfected that there won't be a company with any overhead behind them. It'll just be code in a bitcoin wallet client.

Security of Bitcoins are gonna be the main issue for mass adoption IMO. Most people are gonna want something resembling a "bank" and some insurance so that that they don't accidentally lose all their BTC. The general public can't handle that kind of responsibility.

I can't agree to that. It's super-early and we've already got a dozen public corps accepting bitcoin, and pretty much the entire porn and gambling industries.

Between coinbase and bitpay, they're reporting like 45,000 vendors have already signed up.

That's DECENT. That number still doesn't really impress me yet.

From a marketing perspective, I feel like Bitcoin is at the point where it should be framed as the "preferred" and "hip" method of payment.

Get the early adopters and social influencers on board, and this thing really starts to gain traction.

Luckily, Silicon Valley is starting to become the trendsetters, so this perfect storm is happening almost naturally.

There is no such centralization that you are crediting coinbase with here. In fact Bitpay may have more customers than coinbase, and blockchain.info has even more merchants using their API that aren't even customers... They just offer free software that facilitates merchant and user adoption.

Based on everything I'm seeing, I feel confident CoinBase is gonna surge past BitPay. I could list every reason why, but I'll save that for another time.

Blockchain is making some big moves too, acquiring a trading platform. I'm keeping an eye on them.

But let's say someone like Bill Gates comes along and decides he wants to start his own cryptocurrency and beat bitcoin with it.

Funny you say that, because he is actually working on one http://betterthancash.org

And of course, all the major banks are involved. They aren't going away quietly.

Also, I like how its acronym is BTC ;)

This is the part of Satoshi's genius that makes me smile every time. They don't need brand loyalty. They want money.

How much money can you make mining doge or litecoin with an investment of, say, $20,000 right now?

If you put that investment into cutting-edge bitcoin mining rigs right now, you will most definitely make far more. The simple, unavoidable fact is that the safer your network is (more hashing power) the more the product is worth, and therefore the more profitable for miners... This is a positive feedback loop that hasn't had a chance of being broken for years now.

This is incorrect. I dropped about a fourth of that on a 6 GPU mining rig, and I'm not touching Bitcoin with a 10 foot pole.

Nobody looking to make profit right now is mining Bitcoin. Bitcoin mining has moved on to being strictly mined by ASICs. If you ask anyone mining, they all agree Bitcoin is not worth getting in at this point due to the increasing difficulty.

Here's what miners are saying:

If you buy new hardware now it will be unprofitable. Predicted difficulty increase means that hardware cost plus electricity won't even be covered. The only people who are making anything now are those with hardware already, those with cheap/free electricity (that someone somewhere is paying for) and of course the people who sell mining hardware.

Even if you are long on Bitcoin, its more profitable to mine random coins and instantly trade them for BTC.

I'm ok with people and governments thinking so. ;)

Lol you're killin' me here :P

Marc's a great guy to have on our side; but that's kind of a limited view... The internet is only a flow of information, through which you can lie. Bitcoin however is an uncensorable flow of only truthful information, and all commerce too.

Come on now, he's already being bold enough saying that on record. If he said "the internet is nothing compared to bitcoin" at this point, he'd sound like a fool.

/novel
 
Is this another "bitcoin needs regulation" thing? I swear to jeebus I'll barf all over this thread if you take us down that road again.

I don't know any bitcoin fanatics who aren't hard at work trying to make bitcoin easier to use and more accessible to everyone. That includes me... I don't spend all my time arguing about it, and I'm sure the other fanatics aren't doing so either... If for no other reason than they want to get their hands on more coin.

Bitcoin is flawless. You are a genius. I did not tell you a million times that the exchanges had serious problems that would keep volatility high.
 
There are some critical systemic problems in the Bitcoin market. I believe the technology itself will have a major impact on our future, but ignoring these problems, the way many Bitcoin fanatics have because of financial and ideological conflict, seriously hinders this technology.

So much this.


The true innovation behind Bitcoin is the blockchain. This splendid piece of technology will be the one that is going to change our lives and it will pretty much innovate any industry we know today. I've talked with several economic professors and am working together with a few of them right now and they are all saying the same: Bitcoin will be replaced, but the core product and idea behind it, the blockchain, will be the one that is going to be carried on and will be the reasons for the creation of dozens of other, Bitcoin 2.0 projects that will disrupt Bitcoin and eventually replace it in the coming years.

The network effect may be true, but has Bitcoin really reached the network effect yet? Bitcoin is still in its infancy and other crypto-projects will not have a difficulty in replacing Bitcoin and creating a new network effect where everyone jumps on the train and calls it the next big thing. Open-source means that anyone can innovate and improve. Bitcoin is currently being innovated and improved by dozens of teams around the world that want to replace it.

BeW23PK.png



Bitcoin has not yet crossed the chasm and reached the masses, therefore stating that it can not be replaced due to the network effect is definitely not true.

I am a Bitcoin holder, I believe in the project and don't think that BTC will be replaced in the next 1 - 3 years. But I realized that saying "Bitcoin will never be replaced" is not only a lie to others, but it is also a lie to myself. It is just not true.
 
AuroraCoin is a joke. I have to admit the AltCoin market is looking pretty bubbly.

That said, my tip of the day on MazaCoin went well. Jumped up over 90% at its peak.

It's a huge huge bubble.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=497736.0

I was looking up Auroracoin, and now I know why it's marketcap is insanely inflated: There are only 98476 coins in circulation, but coinmarketcap is also including all 10,500,000 (50%) of the premine coins for a total of 10,598,476 coins.

The true value of the Auroracoin marketcap is currently $2,552,498. When the airdrop happens, expect the price to eventually plummet to less than 1% of it's current value when the airdrop is finally complete. If I were an Icelander, I'd grab my free ~$900 USD and dump it right away, the price is only going to drop as the supply inflates by %10,000 in less than a year's time.

Additionally, people don't seem to realize that currently one entity controls 50% of the total Auroracoin supply (10,500,000) while there are only ~100k coins being traded by everyone else. So when the price "jumps" 60-70%, that's actually not uncommon for low valued coins; however, because the pre-mine number is included, this jump looks magnitudes larger than it really is.

People usually scream bloody murder to premine (even as *low* as 10%!), but some guy comes along and says "give me 50% premine, I promise to distribute it, trust me" and suddenly everyone is convinced.


Some people made a lot of money with this, that's what the AltCoin industry is mostly about. Lots of money to make, lots of money to lose, no real value generated.
 
Anybody else see this comment someone named "CCC" made at the Gawker.com article from the other day? You have to go to the article and scroll down to the "gray" area in the comments where comments weren't approved yet -- here's the article:



Does Mt. Gox’s CEO Have a Secret History of Committing Fraud?

Does Mt.Gox's CEO Have a Secret History of Committing Fraud?

And this was the comment from somebody named "CCC";

CCC

the answer yes. One of my facebook friends went to high school with him. He said Karpeles was arrested for stealing credit cards.

-------

If that's true, then this isn't just about stealing Bitcoins; this is about major identity theft and all Mt. Gox account holders are deeply at risk.
 
I think Karpeles going down furthers the appeal of bitcoin to the anarchist / fuck-this-system audience. This guy might have run his kiddie bitcoin bidness for a few years, but now he's being dragged over the coals.

Can't say the same for, uh, you know, bankers.

f2c76ee57f6b83a8b75d15e42032b03a6283656d59ed0824ef6cd83280d32569.jpg


And furthermore, you don't need to be an insider to follow the money. People are investigating the blockchain and seeing where the coins are. There's no permission needed to poke around the books.
 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reo7WbibxaQ"]Shit Bitcoin Fanatics Say, Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV_kP91hJ7g"]Shit Bitcoin Fanatics Say, Part 2 - YouTube[/ame]
 
Security of Bitcoins are gonna be the main issue for mass adoption IMO. Most people are gonna want something resembling a "bank" and some insurance so that that they don't accidentally lose all their BTC. The general public can't handle that kind of responsibility.
I certainly see the appeal to this argument, but what we're going to see is that 3rd world feature-phone users are going to be the biggest adopters of bitcoin, and they're new economy will quickly dwarf ours. With it, they'll bring their bankless standard to the rest of us few pitiful countries.

It took Kenya mere months to develop their cell minutes into a currency which today makes up 40% of Kenya's GDP.

Bitcoin offers so many improvements over that system it's literally going to be the easiest sell of all to get them to switch.

Andreas Antonopoulus frequently speaks on this subject, tons of youtube vids... Highly recommended viewing.


That's DECENT. That number still doesn't really impress me yet.
Someone's got some high standards...

Give it time bro... All of the ATMs and most of the exchanges just got rolled out in the last 3 months. The Merchant pillar got a little taller than the User pillar because of the user's lack of access to buy bitcoins. Now it can catch up and they'll all grow together far faster.



From a marketing perspective, I feel like Bitcoin is at the point where it should be framed as the "preferred" and "hip" method of payment.
That's for the software program to frame it, not for the protocol. Did http ever put out any advertising?


Funny you say that, because he is actually working on one The Better Than Cash Alliance - Homepage

And of course, all the major banks are involved. They aren't going away quietly.

Also, I like how its acronym is BTC ;)
Is that a coin? I've scoured the website looking for some technical specs and it just appears to be more legacy banking network. What an unhelpful site.


This is incorrect. I dropped about a fourth of that on a 6 GPU mining rig, and I'm not touching Bitcoin with a 10 foot pole.

Nobody looking to make profit right now is mining Bitcoin.
Don't make me break out some mining calculators bro!

Of course cutting-edge bitcoin mining is still the most profitable! Why else would people spend so much on the lastest asics?

The thing is that it's only the most profitable when you have a the newest, most efficient equipment. Right now you wouldn't be making much unless you personally had multiple Terrahashes mining bitcoin. A few hundred Gigahash isn't going to make you back the money you spent to get it anymore; but the price of bitcoin is so much higher than any other coin that when you get past a Terrahash in power, it becomes far more profitable to mine it.

(And next month you can replace the word Terrahash in the above sentence with Petahash.)

So as I attempted to point out before, it's not incorrect, but it's specific to the bleeding edge with the majority of the hashrate.



Bitcoin is flawless. You are a genius. I did not tell you a million times that the exchanges had serious problems that would keep volatility high.
Are we butthurt bro? I'm not trying to come off like a know-it-all; It's just that I was asking economists questions about how volatility would go down enough years ago. This is just old hat to me, and the answers I'm giving are certianly not my original thoughts.

About the volatility, there has been some awesome news yesterday.

Remember how I keep asserting how all the coders and VC money in bitcoin now will smooth out all these problems over time? Well it looks like one of the biggest companies in bitcoin, Blockchain.info (Where Andreas Antonopoulus is the CSO) just figured out a way to massively combat bitcoin's volatility! (Volatility is, by all accounts, our worst problem for currency adoption.)

Blockchain to Buy Bitcoin Trading Platform: CEO: Video - Bloomberg

Blockchain's CEO says in that vid that Blockchain will never touch fiat and therefore won't be regulatable... But nonetheless it appears that they've found a way for us all to arbitrage bitcoin across all the exchanges just buy uploading your fiat to your local one!

I've personally never minded the volatility myself. Growing spurts always happen to things that are still growing... But if we could smoothen out the road with exchange arbitrage, man, that's going to do wonders in the minds of people around the world who are scared to jump in these stormy waters.

Here's hoping they get it right!



I don't think the concepts of "lies" or "truth" can be applied to low level data in any serious way.
Perhaps truth isn't the best word I could have chosen. Consensus would be more apt in the blockchain's case... But since it includes consensus of off-blockchain facts too, I didn't want to pick that word because it gives the impression of consensus only being reached on the amount of coin in someones' wallet.


So much this.
I realize that arguing this point over and over, about how bitcoin itself will survive not some spinoff, is what makes me look the most fanatical.

Yet still, I don't see how bitcoin itself could die. There's no probable scenario that allows it.

It's like claiming that we won't be drinking water anymore in a few years because something better will come along.

Besides, bitcoin 2.0 was called litecoin. It was interesting but not needed.




The true innovation behind Bitcoin is the blockchain. This splendid piece of technology will be the one that is going to change our lives and it will pretty much innovate any industry we know today.
Correct.

I've talked with several economic professors and am working together with a few of them right now and they are all saying the same: Bitcoin will be replaced,
(Austrian) Economists form the basis for a lot of what I spout in here about bitcoin. However, they didn't give you an economic reason what bitcoin will be replaced, did they?

I know this because such a thing is not not an economic issue... It's a technical one.

The problem is though, everyone who's not up to snuff on the technical side of the coin seems to assume that something better can come along and replace bitcoin. The techies, however, will tell you otherwise.

Being first-to-market always trumps improvement when it comes to protocols. Like steering the Titanic, adoption of a protocol takes a long time to get up to speed, and a long time to change the direction of... And just forget about stopping it.


The network effect may be true, but has Bitcoin really reached the network effect yet?
The network effect describes how every additional node adds more than its' own value to the overall group.

Think of the telephone. When Alexander Bell called the only other node on his telephone network, how useful was the telephone to the world at that moment?

When you add a 3rd telephone to the network, you don't just improve the value for the new phone's owner; you also improve the value of the network for the other two people because they both can now contact 50% more people with their phone!

Each and every phone added to our phone network makes the overall network more valuable because we all have someone else we can call on it. It's an exponential growth thing; and bitcoin had its' network effect in play long before the infamous pizza was purchased.


Bitcoin is currently being innovated and improved by dozens of teams around the world that want to replace it.
There are so many things wrong with this sentence I just don't know where to start... For one thing, there aren't 'dozens of teams' working on improving & innovating bitcoin. There are Many thousands. Just the projects on Github for bitcoin number 3,075 today. That's the world's largest ecosystem of development, and quite a lot of these people are very well funded if for no other reason that they were early to see bitcoin's promise and bought some of it years ago.

Secondly, the actual bitcoin Core dev team is only 1 team. They're the only ones that touch bitcoin itself, and anything that they want to add or change has to be communicated to, and accepted by, the vast majority of all miners worldwide... Not something that happens often.

Third, where in the hell are you getting the idea that "teams around the world want to replace it"? Are you just talking about altcoins here? If that's all you mean then I think you'll find that all altcoin dev teams put together couldn't build a network 1/100th as large as the bitcoin network, no matter what these coins are valued at. Too much momentum has moved bitcoin's 3 pillars upwards.


BeW23PK.png


Bitcoin has not yet crossed the chasm and reached the masses, therefore stating that it can not be replaced due to the network effect is definitely not true.
The network effect started with the third miner, and it gives no fuck where the line for that chasm is drawn.

It will always be more valuable to add another node to the network.
 
1. Login to fiverr.

2. Hire someone named Gupta or Rajesh.

3. Have them hack into any of the current bitcoin exchanges.

4. You have now achieved internet billionaire status.