How Hydra Affiliate Network Screwed Me Out Of $25,000

[miketpowell]

Getting to see more about how the traffic converts for the advertiser is great but did you ever think they might not want to share to much about that data? Think of it this way, you bid on keywords from Google but do you want to share anything with Google about the quality of that traffic and how much money you are turning it into with clever marketing? I think many agree that they don't, we are afraid Google will want our margins if they are high and advertisers would be afraid of the same thing I imagine. The only thing you want to tell Google is how you are willing to pay for a click from that keyword and they give you traffic accordingly.

Advertisers might not want you to know exactly how much they can make off of what type of traffic for the exact same reason. I think a great system would be if there was a starting bid when you started running traffic with an offer that would dynamically change over time. Say the lead pays $10 to start and you start running traffic, the advertiser then would have the option to dynamically move that price up or down depending on how they liked your quality. Similarly to how we simply tell Google or other ad networks how much we are willing to pay for a click and dynamically change the price based on how it converts.

But that's just what I think would be kind of neat, certainly plenty of tracking to do on the advertisers part but they could really get the traffic they want. I'm sure there would be tons of money in it for the network if they could get something like this set up.

 

[oknetwork]

Yeah great post Aq. That would be an interesting thing to implement and I'm sure if we came up with the concept of how it would work we could probably get hitpath to implement it. As well as some advertisers to test it. Would need to be some sort of postback system for the advertisers when the desired outcome occured for them. Definately an interesting idea that I'd be willing to work with anyone on.

Well from advertiser point of view showing how leads convert to sales is like showing keywords and landing pages for affiliate.
I think what would be sufficient and relatively easy to implement if there would be a system where it shows just "signs"
like good, improve, stop next to offer you running on dashborad when you login to your account.

 

[andyt]

I've never had success when asking for more specifics of what part of my traffic is converting really well (auto rebilling) or which subids are not converting well- It's a good question to ask because in most cases it shuts the advertiser/network up about traffic quality because like oknetwork said no one wants that data to get into the affiliate's hands. Networks may blame it on the lack of tracking, and that may even be true but if it was really something that more then just affiliates were interested in it, it would already exist I think.

Also I'd like to say it's unfair to pick on Max-bounty just because Steve responded. All the other networks who didn't respond most likely have similar or even worse views for the affiliate. I'm not going to directly recommend them or any other network right now, but I have worked with Max-bounty in the past without any problems.

 

[Aequitas]

Getting to see more about how the traffic converts for the advertiser is great but did you ever think they might not want to share to much about that data? Think of it this way, you bid on keywords from Google but do you want to share anything with Google about the quality of that traffic and how much money you are turning it into with clever marketing? I think many agree that they don't, we are afraid Google will want our margins if they are high and advertisers would be afraid of the same thing I imagine. The only thing you want to tell Google is how you are willing to pay for a click from that keyword and they give you traffic accordingly.

Advertisers might not want you to know exactly how much they can make off of what type of traffic for the exact same reason. I think a great system would be if there was a starting bid when you started running traffic with an offer that would dynamically change over time. Say the lead pays $10 to start and you start running traffic, the advertiser then would have the option to dynamically move that price up or down depending on how they liked your quality. Similarly to how we simply tell Google or other ad networks how much we are willing to pay for a click and dynamically change the price based on how it converts.

But that's just what I think would be kind of neat, certainly plenty of tracking to do on the advertisers part but they could really get the traffic they want. I'm sure there would be tons of money in it for the network if they could get something like this set up.

Well from advertiser point of view showing how leads convert to sales is like showing keywords and landing pages for affiliate.

Both are completely understandable, but the system can be designed in a secure way, it would require some thinking but it can be done.

For instance we as affiliates don't share our keywords with the affiliate companies, no we store them in our own databases and transfer back the database id to be read out.

Same concept here, the tracking links would fire as a post-back or pixel system as they do now but also when the goal is met for the advertiser, the affiliate network to keep the advertisers data secure would not have to tell us affiliates what is required on the advertisers end to count as a goal, instead they can just say your reaching a 10% advertiser goal, to keep them happy keep it above 5%.

Or even more security is not to give us affiliates a number value but to instead just have a thing saying "Excellent", "Average", "Pick It Up" or something along those lines.

Basically the system would ensure that everyone's privacy is being kept secure and no data which would released that doesn't have to be.

As previously stated it would definately take some sit downs and brainstorming to address some issues but I'm certain something like this can be accomplished which would help increase these types of relationships.

Not only that but you can even give the networks some more leverage by allowing them to know for certain how much traffic is converting on the advertisers end instead of taking the word of the advertiser, pretty much just let the data speak for itself.

Also it would have to be secured somehow from the advertiser cause you don't want them to remove the tracking script or interfear with it to make the traffic seem like shit when it is actually perfectly valid.

 

[miketpowell]

^^ I completely agree. I think our ideas sound very similar. Only instead of the advertiser telling the affiliate the traffic is "Excellent", "Average", "Pick It Up" they simply change the price they are willing to pay for a lead accordingly. The problem with securing how the advertiser would not cheat and always say "Pick It Up" and bid lower would be the competitive market and the existence of similar advertisers. So that would be easier with a system like that.

But everything else would be much harder to set up I imagine with a system where the advertiser can actively change the bid for each affiliates traffic.

 

[parrot head]

This really sucks to hear.

I personally think it's a shame that hydra has not
come in here and said even one word, really shows
you something about character in this industry.

 

[Aequitas]

^^ I completely agree. I think our ideas sound very similar. Only instead of the advertiser telling the affiliate the traffic is "Excellent", "Average", "Pick It Up" they simply change the price they are willing to pay for a lead accordingly. The problem with securing how the advertiser would not cheat and always say "Pick It Up" and bid lower would be the competitive market and the existence of similar advertisers. So that would be easier with a system like that.

But everything else would be much harder to set up I imagine with a system where the advertiser can actively change the bid for each affiliates traffic.

That is a good idea kind of like a PPC system for advertisers, but just like the previous issues I can see the advertiser trying all they can to lower there bids down to nothing but then again just like regular PPC the market should keep it at a decent average, unless everyone just teamed up to influence the market lol.

But you've also got to keep in mind that there would have to be minimums in place for the network margins and security in place so that if your making $2/conversion it doesn't drop the next day to $1/conversion, that alone could kill a campaign for the affiliate.

None the less keep the good ideas flowing, we might want to start up a thread just to discuss this one particular system of play before it completely overtakes this one.

 

[strikernr]

^^ I completely agree. I think our ideas sound very similar. Only instead of the advertiser telling the affiliate the traffic is "Excellent", "Average", "Pick It Up" they simply change the price they are willing to pay for a lead accordingly. The problem with securing how the advertiser would not cheat and always say "Pick It Up" and bid lower would be the competitive market and the existence of similar advertisers. So that would be easier with a system like that.

But everything else would be much harder to set up I imagine with a system where the advertiser can actively change the bid for each affiliates traffic.

It would make it harder for affiliates to pick a good offer to run. What if the offer that works, is always "Pick it up", no matter what you do and other offers just don't turn any profit (because of low conversions), even with the slight higher payout?

If the traffic is not backing up for the advertiser, why not just ask the network to work out a deal with the advertiser so they are not losing. That would probably mean cutting down on the traffic, identifying which sub_ids are working, etc. Once the advertiser is happy with the traffic just let it sit and run.

I rather be happy with making some money with the offer that works, then being just pulled out and making no money.

I think communication is the key.

 

[Aequitas]

I started up a new thread here.

http://www.wickedfire.com/affiliate...filiate-advertiser-network-relationships.html

For anyone interested in talking more about the advertiser/network/affiliate relationships so we don't completely overtake this thread and so we can have one solid thread to address some ideas and issues in more specifics.

 

[conv3rsion]

Advertisers might not want you to know exactly how much they can make off of what type of traffic for the exact same reason. I think a great system would be if there was a starting bid when you started running traffic with an offer that would dynamically change over time.

This exists already for the advertisers, its called scrubbing. Advertisers can do all of what you are suggesting without giving the Affiliate any real useful data at all.

So I guess my point is, why would they?

 

[catchafire]

similar story

I can relate a similar experience with Hydra and Quality Health -

we were forced to eat about 50% of our revenue for February with them via Hydra. Hydra basically came to us and said - here's what the advertiser will pay. We can't do anything about it. It ended up being 10k +

They are trying to pull the same thing with March revenue. All of this coming to light 30+ days after the traffic was sent. Unbelievable.

Hydra is falling apart. There has been serious turnover recently. Don't send traffic there, in my opinion....

I was promoting a "Quality Health" offer for Free Spring Samples.
It was a full registration page with about 15 fields that paid 2.60.
The traffic was being sent to my landing page than to the offer. All traffic was generated strictly with Adwords. There was nothing shady going on. I promoted the offer 100% within the guidelines. I spoke to my affiliate manager every day to make sure everything was on the up and up.

So I am sending them about $3,000-$5,000 worth of leads every day. Everything is great and I am put on weeklies. I promote this offer for a full 2 months. At the end of the 2 months the advertiser decides they are not happy with my leads and doesnt want to pay Hydra. Now I am not responsible for evaluating leads. That is the advertiser and Hydras job to monitor the leads and make sure they are converting for them. How am I suppose to know my quality traffic is giving poor leads. They decide to milk me for as long as they can after I spend thousands on advertising to say we dont want to pay.

So Hydra owes me for 1 week. Which happens to be $25,000. Keep in mind half of my gross income is expenses to google. They just informed me they are paying me $0 of the $25,000 they owe me. Again, nothing shady was done here. Everything was on the up and up. I of course would have settled with a lower number, but $0? I have been a full time affiliate for several years now, and have never seen such unproffessionalism and complete disregard for their affiliates. It was obvious they were fighting for their deadbeat advertiser that doesnt pay.

They threw me for a loop. It took them a full month to tell me they are paying me nothing. I know some people like hydra here, but they are the lamest most unprofessional company, I have ever worked with. They are far more concerned with keeping advertisers than they are publishers. They treated me like I was not important. My clown of an affiliate manager- Charlie- tried several times during this period of no pay to get me to send more traffic to them. I had to laugh.

Word of advice- First of all dont use hydra. Horrible to work with (They told me of another affiliate that lost 4 times as much as did at the same time mine was going on. Apparently they do this to affiliates alot). If you are sending big numbers to offers, always make sure the advertiser is happy with your leads. It is very important.

Theres my rant....

 

[vladb2]

Just want to say MaxBounty is a great network. Never had any issues with them and my AM Matthew is super responsive and eager to help out. Tracking is also right on the ball.

 

[jeremy217]

I think this might be some bullcrap I smell..

What if some of the old employees that got fired is trying to scare away affiliates..

catchafire you got 6 posts dude.... And your last post before today was in 2006..

...

 

[kingrage]

I think this might be some bullcrap I smell..

What if some of the old employees that got fired is trying to scare away affiliates..

catchafire you got 6 posts dude....

...

Quality Health is notorious for complaining about traffic quality.

And I imagine that losing your COO, Executive Vice President, Director of Sales who basically ran the place and your two Directors of Affiliate Marketing would have some effects on a company.

And I'll vouch for Steve and MaxBounty, they may not be perfect but is any network? I've been working with them for almost three years now with no major problems.

 

[ChrisS]

I think this might be some bullcrap I smell..

What if some of the old employees that got fired is trying to scare away affiliates..

catchafire you got 6 posts dude.... And your last post before today was in 2006..

...

Maybe that's true, but Hydra hasn't replied yet. Either they were in the wrong here and are ignoring this hoping it will go away or they haven't seen this yet which makes them the most clueless motherfuckers alive.

Neither one is a good look, IMO.

 

[Aequitas]

but Hydra hasn't replied yet.

With the changes they probably don't even know about WickedFire anymore haha.

 

[erect]

Maybe that's true, but Hydra hasn't replied yet. Either they were in the wrong here and are ignoring this hoping it will go away or they haven't seen this yet which makes them the most clueless motherfuckers alive.

Perhaps it's time to rank the thread for something like hydra scam or hydra rip off. Since they are unreachable, this might get their attention.

 

[Rage9]

Perhaps it's time to rank the thread for something like hydra scam or hydra rip off. Since they are unreachable, this might get their attention.

At the same time, we should feel almost spoiled consider how Mike and Smaxor handle business on the forum. They do it however because they want to protect their brands, and it's the right thing to do. It would be awesome if more networks would do it, but they have no obligation.

 

[bluechinagroup]

This exists already for the advertisers, its called scrubbing. Advertisers can do all of what you are suggesting without giving the Affiliate any real useful data at all.

So I guess my point is, why would they?

Arbitrary scrubbing is fraud. It's fraudulent to only show 4 leads if 10 leads actually took place. There should be more transparency in this industry.

I remember back in the day when I used to push porn, everybody denied shaving. Now it seems to be an open secret and tolerated.

 

[nvanprooyen]

Perhaps it's time to rank the thread for something like hydra scam or hydra rip off. Since they are unreachable, this might get their attention.

No kidding. I would imagine that the members of this forum make up a pretty significant piece of their business. It's pretty unbelievable that no one from the network has bothered to post their position in response to this.