Why an MRI costs $1,080 in America and $280 in France

I understand fine, the problem with your argument is that nobody gives a shit about your economics and free market bullshit, all they want is to receive treatment when they need it and not have to sell their home for it.
Right, that's why rapists do what they do. They just want to have sex without having to invest time in developing a relationship.

Yes, no one cares about economics and free market "bullshit". Why worry about facts, morality, science, philosophy or humanity when you can knee jerk demand whatever you want and never acknowledge the consequences for doing so?

Australia provides that luxury along with every other civilised nation, apart your own.
Australia is a figment of your imagination, a delusion, lines on a map given an identity. Nothing more, nothing less. There are people who claim to act as "Australia" but they are no more doing so than I am the Easter Jesus Santa.

It's a delusion maintained by billions, but a delusion nonetheless.

Australia provides nothing for you. The state steals for you. You endorse this because you like getting stolen stuff.

That's it in a nutshell.

Your free market healthcare utopia doesn't exist, it never has and it never will.
This is irrelevant to the discussion and also, incorrect.

If you have any proof that a deregulated free market healthcare system is in use or has ever worked in history I'd love to see it.
How Government Solved the Health Care Crisis

The USA is the closest thing to it, and it's fucked.
The US is nowhere near a free market, nor has anyone here claimed that.

Facts son, they are very inconvenient for people like you who live off the sweat and hard work of others.
 


When I say the government, what else could I mean than other Australians? I'm not ignorant, I realize that the government is funded by other Australian individual's taxes, business tax, sales tax etc etc.
Then say "other Australians". Other people are paying for your healthcare.

Do you believe that every individual is entitled to basic health care?
I don't think anyone is entitled to anything, and I challenge you to prove that they are. Can you?

If not, that's where our difference in opinon stems from and we're never going to agree on the basic economics surrounding health care unless we agree on that question.
Economics is about facts, not moral imperatives. Economics is value free.

You're claiming a value that people are entitled to basic health care. From where did you acquire this value? How do you plan to enforce it?

If you don't, then let me ask you a question. A person is shot and bleeding to death, if they don't go to hospital then they will die. Should this person be admitted to hospital if they don't have the means to pay for their stay?
Of course not. Should I have the means to eat the food from your fridge if I am hungry? To drive your car if I want to go somewhere? To wear your clothes if I am feeling cold?

Btw, was the person shot for not paying their taxes so you could have "free" healthcare?

Now let's assume another scenario, that person is you - the person who has shot you has stolen your wallet and all other forms of identification. The hospital has no idea whether you will be able to pay for your stay, should they admit you or let you die?
This is not only nonsensical, it is irrelevant. Explain how it is relevant, and I will consider answering it, but just throwing out random hypotheticals is a huge waste of my very valuable time.

Preventive medicine is cheaper than Remedial/Curative medicine. I'd rather pay more than my fair share than live in a country that doesn't provide basic health cover.
Do you pay 100% for everything you use?
 
None of the free marketers want to answer this? I'm genuinely interested in your response as I'm yet to hear a coherent answer to this question.
Alright, I'll take a stab at it... It seemed to be already answered in previous posts before, but perhaps not spelled out enough for some of you socialists. ;)

Do you believe that every individual is entitled to basic health care?
No, not unless you find a way to pay for entitlements without stealing from other people.

If not, that's where our difference in opinon stems from and we're never going to agree on the basic economics surrounding health care unless we agree on that question.
Then you are clearly the one in the wrong, unless you can convince me that being taxed against my will for any reason whatsoever is moral. Please go watch the George ought to help film above on this very topic and then convince me that george is wrong or the system you are propagating & encouraging is a moral society.

If you don't, then let me ask you a question. A person is shot and bleeding to death, if they don't go to hospital then they will die. Should this person be admitted to hospital if they don't have the means to pay for their stay?
Wow, that's quite a classic you dug up there. The USA makes it a rule to not turn these ppl away for the initial, life-saving treatment and then bill them heavily for it.

This custom makes me feel sorry for the poor doctors forced to do that work without assured pay, but that little thing called Charity and the other thing called the Hippocratic Oath will keep this tradition alive in ANY society... You don't need socialism to keep that basic level of service up... It's a HUMAN thing to do so.

Now let's assume another scenario, that person is you - the person who has shot you has stolen your wallet and all other forms of identification. The hospital has no idea whether you will be able to pay for your stay, should they admit you or let you die?
Of course they should. I'd tell them who I am and who my insurance company is. I don't see what the problem is here?

Preventive medicine is cheaper than Remedial/Curative medicine. I'd rather pay more than my fair share than live in a country that doesn't provide basic health cover.
So you see paying MORE than your fair share as being the only way to ensure you get basic health coverage? How sad.

Edit: Damn G, thought you went to bed... :thumbsup:
 
I don't think anyone is entitled to anything, and I challenge you to prove that they are. Can you?
I don't think you're entitled to your right of freedom of speech, and I challenge you to prove that you are. Can you?

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Australia is a figment of your imagination, a delusion, lines on a map given an identity. Nothing more, nothing less. There are people who claim to act as "Australia" but they are no more doing so than I am the Easter Jesus Santa.

This is irrelevant to the discussion and also, incorrect. Australia is a real place bordered by real lines.

Australia provides nothing for you. The state steals for you. You endorse this because you like getting stolen stuff.

Alright, if you want to look at it that way why don't you take it all the way? Why don't you give your land up to the Native Americans that it was stolen from? Maybe give back all that link juice you steal and sell by spamming peoples forums, or at least give them a commission. Or is the internet not a real place and that makes it ok?

It's clear that you only draw the line where it's convenient for you, making you clearly full of shit and a hypocrite. Ron Paul would be disappointed.
 
I pay $120 a month for my health insurance. Why would I want to pay thousands a year in taxes to get "free" medical care? It doesn't make sense unless you're too stupid to make your own decisions. If you want something, pay for it yourself. Don't be "charitable" with other peoples' money.
 
What people often misunderstand is that your "cheap healthcare" is being paid the profits generated by the free market. You are able to pay those taxes, and your govt. can collect those billions in taxes only because of a free market. But paying for a socialistic way of living from a libertarian way of earning is what is ironic. Because Free Market is not great enough to absorb all these expense and will cycle back to more socialism, because the the world is full of free loaders.

Taking Europe, Australia and Canada as an example is faulty in the first place. When I say Free market, it is a relative term. You should compare your Australia with an India (not quite free, but relatively free post 1991) and going further left, all the way till Cuba or North Korea.

And US is not a Free Market. Please.

Problem is that most people just love the status quo, until it goes really bad.
 
So you see paying MORE than your fair share as being the only way to ensure you get basic health coverage? How sad.

Why would I want to pay thousands a year in taxes to get "free" medical care?

Facts son, they are very inconvenient for people like you who live off the sweat and hard work of others.

So now we pay for MORE than we use? Guerilla has been insisting we don't pay enough for what we use because other Aussies are funding it for us with their sweat and hard work. You guys really have to get your story straight.

You don't need socialism to keep that basic level of service up... It's a HUMAN thing to do so.

Like the insurance companies that refuse to cover people? are they being human or are they more interested in profits?

lukep, I appreciate you not taking on the nasty attitude and tone Guerilla always has, he can really make a guy hate anarcho-capitalists.
 
None of the free marketers want to answer this? I'm genuinely interested in your response as I'm yet to hear a coherent answer to this question.

klaner.jpg


The US doesn't have a problem with people being turned away from emergency rooms. Should Bill Gates be told he has to pay for someone's medical bills? If Mr. Gates refuses to do this should he be locked in a cage?




I pay $120 a month for my health insurance. Why would I want to pay thousands a year in taxes to get "free" medical care?

If you are in the USA then you likely are already paying thousands in taxes a year towards health care, not just for Americans but also for people in places like Iraq.
 
None of the free marketers want to answer this? I'm genuinely interested in your response as I'm yet to hear a coherent answer to this question.

easy in the US you are required to cover life threatening problems. so what's your question?

That has nothing to do with healthcare. We shouldn't have to pay for your sniffles, or cough, what ever whiny problem that you have. Or provide a woman with birth control, I could care less if you get pregnant not my problem. I do have a problem with abortion being cover by my "fair" share to kill people (if you don't agree with me on abortion, that's fine, but I still shouldn't have my tax dollars funding it).
 
klaner.jpg


The US doesn't have a problem with people being turned away from emergency rooms. Should Bill Gates be told he has to pay for someone's medical bills? If Mr. Gates refuses to do this should he be locked in a cage?






If you are in the USA then you likely are already paying thousands in taxes a year towards health care, not just for Americans but also for people in places like Iraq.


It's true, Iraqi people get "free healthcare" and the U.S. tax payers pay for it. It's a total mind fuck to think we give Irqis free health care and our own citizens dont get it. I'm against it either way, but if someone is going to get it then it should be us. It's fucking insane.
 
I don't think you're entitled to your right of freedom of speech, and I challenge you to prove that you are. Can you?
I can; it's in the bill of rights and some dudes named Washington, Jefferson, and Adams said so. (Although Obama is trying very hard to take it away.)

...But once I leave this country It's not as likely that I will be entitled to free speech wherever else I go. It depends on your ground rules.

In an anarcho-capitalist society, personal rights are the very foundation of law & order. Freedom of speech in that society would be like it is here but even more sacred.


Alright, if you want to look at it that way why don't you take it all the way? Why don't you give your land up to the Native Americans that it was stolen from? Maybe give back all that link juice you steal and sell by spamming peoples forums, or at least give them a commission. Or is the internet not a real place and that makes it ok?
Just because you can't see where the line between morality and personal rights are drawn doesn't mean that we can't. I bet if you learned more about Economics you'd be able to see it one day too.

It's clear that you only draw the line where it's convenient for you, making you clearly full of shit and a hypocrite. Ron Paul would be disappointed.
There was no need for that; you're way off base there. & Ron Paul has extremely libertarian values and would make you feel far more foolish than G has here.

So now we pay for MORE than we use? Guerilla has been insisting we don't pay enough for what we use because other Aussies are funding it for us with their sweat and hard work. You guys really have to get your story straight.
Go back and read my quote again... I was quoting tencentpiece when I said those words. C'mon, keep up with the conversation, will you?

Like the insurance companies that refuse to cover people? are they being human or are they more interested in profits?
They are the result of Crony Corporatism. Flawed in so many ways it's not worth our time to examine.

lukep, I appreciate you not taking on the nasty attitude and tone Guerilla always has, he can really make a guy hate anarcho-capitalists.
G can be a bit curt but he's not wrong. I've learned a hell of a lot from his short answers.
 
This is irrelevant to the discussion and also, incorrect. Australia is a real place bordered by real lines.
So it is a place and not an acting entity? Thanks for making my point.

Alright, if you want to look at it that way why don't you take it all the way?
I do. I try as hard as possible to live my principles.

Why don't you give your land up to the Native Americans that it was stolen from?
I don't own any land.

Maybe give back all that link juice you steal and sell by spamming peoples forums, or at least give them a commission. Or is the internet not a real place and that makes it ok?
I wasn't aware I had stolen anything from anyone online.

This is all ad hominem on your part anyway, but are you admitting that you believe that stealing is ok?

It's clear that you only draw the line where it's convenient for you, making you clearly full of shit and a hypocrite. Ron Paul would be disappointed.
It's clear you don't know me, and in the absence of an intelligent argument, have to attack me personally from a position of profound ignorance.

I don't accept stolen goods from the government. You do. And you endorse it.
 
LukeP: If a democratic process is coercion when it comes to taxes, isn't it coercion when it comes to everything?
 
LukeP: If a democratic process is coercion when it comes to taxes, isn't it coercion when it comes to everything?
I believe it is always coercion whenever it forces someone to part with their property or do something that they don't want to do. Governments deal in coercion primarily.
 
there is virtues to both sides of the economic argument.

you feel like grabbing a burger. You walk into the nearest burger joint and look at the price. You'll then make a decision to see if the benefits of eating that burger outweight the cost of buying it. If the burger costs 50 bucks, most people would just say fuck that and either get an alternative product or just not eat. A burger shop charging $50 would probably have a hard time finding customers who are willing to pay that price, and they would need to drop their price.

What if the burger was subsidized in some way? Maybe your government has a plan to give everyone access to burgers as needed, or perhaps you are paying a monthly fee for some form of burger insurance. When you are hungry, you'll just go take your burger because there is no immediate cost to you. The same burger joint charging $50 can probably stay in business because people who previously would not have paid that price can now give in to impulse without any opportunity cost.

One benefit of this is that the quality of food you are eating is probably way beyond what you would normally get. If they get 50 bucks of revenue for every unit sold, then they can still make a great profit while selling a no-compromise product.

on the flip side, if the burger joint was not subsidized and people were paying out of pocket, then there is now a push for the business to make itself more efficient. They will look for ways to produce the same product at a cheaper price. Over time, people should be able to buy a great burger at a better price.

Laser eye surgery is viewed as elective and not often covered by healthcare. Initially it was very expensive and not that great. They could either make the operation cheaper or they could make it better. So, the price stayed at the same level but laser eye surgery improved to a point where it was worth it for a lot of people. Then, they focused on making the business more efficient so they could offer the same quality product at a cheaper price. now this surgery is affordable by a good chunk of the population. If this was socialized, there would have never been the push to drop the price.

Now one way that the burger argument does not translate over to healthcare is that peoples needs for the products are quite different. If you are abolutely starving and buying that burger is the difference between life and death, then yeah you might sell your house to buy it. If there was a monopoly on food they could charge whatever the fuck they wanted because people would not have a choice. I can see that this would be a pretty common situation with healthcare. Having some government involvement can help reduce the possibility of this kind of abuse. Plus, it can help maintain a minimum level of quality.

I guess the point of this whole thing is that the existence of insurance makes healthcare inefficient for the same reasons that government subsidized healthcare is inefficient. It's just on different levels.
 
there is virtues to both sides of the economic argument.
There is only one economic argument. Redistribution destroys any opportunity for market prices to emerge.

I guess the point of this whole thing is that the existence of insurance makes healthcare inefficient for the same reasons that government subsidized healthcare is inefficient. It's just on different levels.
"Insurance" wrt American healthcare is a subsidized pre-payment plan. It is not insurance by any traditional measure of insurance where risk is pooled and premiums are set at the market level.

Healthcare is a good example of why democracy doesn't work. There are people here who endorse stealing, there are people who don't understand what insurance is and is not, or what economics is and is not.

Pooling all of those people into one decision group where all votes are equal is suicidal, if not completely retarded.
 
So to all the Australians/Canadians/ Europeans arguing here stop wasting your time.

Exactly. America is NUMBER 1 in everything and you can't tell an American otherwise. If Americans want to chose between bankruptcy and death, let them.. who gives a fuck.

So long as I don't have to do the same in my country.

I feel stupider for posting in this thread.