Why an MRI costs $1,080 in America and $280 in France

[rusvik]

All this fanatical anarcho-capitalism gets a bit old. I'm as libertarian as the next dude, but a full on anarchistic society will never happen. While some of us may want and be able to live in a world without governance, the majority of people will always look to surrender some of their freedom for protection. The only societies which could essentially be real anarchistic societies would need an armed warrior like class of people divided into clans strong enough to keep each other at bay. But eventually, power grabs will happen and alliances will destroy the equal footing. Check the history of Scandinavian and Icelandic societes and their evolution from clan based free nations into king serfdom.

 

[MSTeacher]

All this fanatical anarcho-capitalism gets a bit old. I'm as libertarian as the next dude, but a full on anarchistic society will never happen. While some of us may want and be able to live in a world without governance, the majority of people will always look to surrender some of their freedom for protection. The only societies which could essentially be real anarchistic societies would need an armed warrior like class of people divided into clans strong enough to keep each other at bay. But eventually, power grabs will happen and alliances will destroy the equal footing. Check the history of Scandinavian and Icelandic societes and their evolution from clan based free nations into king serfdom.

I don't know if I agree with all of that but I sure would like to see a hard core modern day ancap 'society' - civilization? what it's called if it's not a society? - get off the ground and be successful indefinitely. It would be an important historical milestone. I'm not a fan of the ancap approach to things either but that's secondary to peoples' success in life. If it works it works.

 

[Moxie]

One thing I found interesting was the thread about the 'pink slime' that is present in nearly all the mince meat sold in the US to basically reduce the pure meat content and fill it with other shit left over from the animals. The Australian government banned the use of that a long time ago.

So without government intervention in the US, these food producers continue to stuff this horrible stuff in the meat you buy, without telling you because there's no regulation on it and they don't even need to mark it on the packaging. In a free market, how would this sort itself out? genuine question.

The Australian government in this case is preventing people from having the freedom of choice to eat pink slime if they so desire, while on the other hand I assume they still allow people to smoke cigarettes and eat hot dogs.

According to ABC news, 70% of US supermarkets use it. Whole Foods, Costco, and smaller meat markets that do not use the slime can promote themselves that way. I'm sure there are at least some places already getting ready to add it to their labels, if they haven't already.

I buy Hunt's Ketchup now. Why? Because they switched to using only real sugar instead of high fructose corn syrup, like Heinz and the others still use. Hunt's promotes this on the label and also got plenty of free publicity when they made the change.

 

[JakeStratham]

All this fanatical anarcho-capitalism gets a bit old. I'm as libertarian as the next dude...

If you are a libertarian, you are against all forms of aggression against non-aggressors. All forms. Every single one. No exceptions. By that definition, libertarian minarchists are not libertarians at all.

For those who enjoy a logical approach to libertarianism, ancap, Austrian economics, etc., treat yourself.

 

[hellblazer]

That's an appeal to authority. A form of ad hominem.

No, it's requesting you back up your ridiculous claim. You said it wasn't a mere personal insult, it was a factual clinical, medical definition. So where is the medical proof? Where is the person who specializes in that specific disorder? You're flailing around now, because now your absurd logic would dictate that anyone who went to a lung specialist to check for lung cancer would be engaging in "a form of ad hominem", or anyone who went to a doctor instead of a butcher to cure their illness would be "appealing to authority".

When I said don't descend to my level, I meant that I don't care about engaging in ad hominems because I truly think people here are idiots, clinical definition or not, sometimes it's easier to insult them than try to wade through their drivel. But you've turned into a complete bitch as of late. Why don't you diagnose somebody with a heart arrhythmia next and when they request a pitifully small scintilla of evidence, go and run like a little bitch and claim they're engaging in ad hominems against you. What a complete joke. But at least you'll always have the sycophants here to "like" your illogical posts when you veer off of your usually lucid economic observations.

 

[Sonny Forelli]

Can you tell us the *real* cost, including how much you pay in taxes for your "free" healthcare? You know, it isn't really free. Somebody is paying for it. Maybe even you. And if you are paying for it indirectly through a government taxation based program then you are paying way more.

We have a negative savings rate in America- what makes you think that people are at all capable of buying a car with less than 60-72 mos financing let alone saving for a rainy day.

What just b/c we do it as outliers?

LOL

People operate by spending what they receive in their paychecks. If the average american had to save say 30% of after tax earnings for health since our insurance situation has gotten in large part so laughable or DIE - we'd have a much lower population. (And feel free to argue that this is good, I don't have an opinion on it either way nor skin in the game)

Call that whatever you want, but that's reality.

 

[guerilla]

No, it's requesting you back up your ridiculous claim.

Why is it ridiculous?

You asked me if I was credentialed enough to make that statement, not the merit of the argument. It was ad hominem.

By your logic, Barack Obama is an intelligent leader of the free world because he is qualified by being the President. Obviously you don't agree with that, so why would you ask me to meet a similar standard?

You said it wasn't a mere personal insult, it was a factual clinical, medical definition.

I just defined the words I used from Google's word definition function. Words have specific meanings in order to have a productive discussion, and I provided my meanings for everyone to see and discuss.

When I said don't descend to my level, I meant that I don't care about engaging in ad hominems because I truly think people here are idiots

It's ok because a lot of people here think you are an idiot. Tit for tat.

But you've turned into a complete bitch as of late.

You should ask for a refund. This is an outrage!

But at least you'll always have the sycophants here to "like" your illogical posts when you veer off of your usually lucid economic observations.

I don't post here because anyone likes or dislikes my posts. I post because I get some fun out of arguing, although most people don't care to argue at the level I would really enjoy.

I also don't particularly care what you or anyone else here thinks about me personally. I don't operate seeking social approval, and while you revel in annoying people, I don't get much pleasure from that either.

 

[rusvik]

We have a negative savings rate in America- what makes you think that people are at all capable of buying a car with less than 60-72 mos financing let alone saving for a rainy day.

What just b/c we do it as outliers?

LOL

People operate by spending what they receive in their paychecks. If the average american had to save say 30% of after tax earnings for health since our insurance situation has gotten in large part so laughable or DIE - we'd have a much lower population. (And feel free to argue that this is good, I don't have an opinion on it either way nor skin in the game)

Call that whatever you want, but that's reality.

I'd really like to see a free unregulated insurance system.

People also commonly mistakenly believe that people don't denied health care in the public system. It happens all the time. Old people without families and resources are coded to not be rescusitated if their heart was to stop. Or lots of expensive drugs not available or defacto being denied treatment because it takes so long to get proper diagnosing. It's completely mistaken to think that there isn't really bad economic thinking in public health care.

I believe we should provide decent health care for everyone, but there has to be an option to prioritize ones health, even if it means you get better treatment than others.

 

[Sonny Forelli]

I'd really like to see a free unregulated insurance system.

People also commonly mistakenly believe that people don't denied health care in the public system. It happens all the time. Old people without families and resources are coded to not be rescusitated if their heart was to stop. Or lots of expensive drugs not available or defacto being denied treatment because it takes so long to get proper diagnosing. It's completely mistaken to think that there isn't really bad economic thinking in public health care.

I believe we should provide decent health care for everyone, but there has to be an option to prioritize ones health, even if it means you get better treatment than others.

I agree with this 100% - letting privatized insurance companies TAKE your money and then weasel out of providing the care promised based on the same ludicrous technicalities and fine print akin to mortgage backed derivative complexly created securities which crippled our economy while a few got filthy rich (you know, those who could hire ANYONE here to hold a cognac snifter for them 24/7) is what I take issue with.

 

[guerilla]

People also commonly mistakenly believe that people don't denied health care in the public system. It happens all the time. Old people without families and resources are coded to not be rescusitated if their heart was to stop.

This is going to happen in a universe where time and space are scarce. Not everyone is going to get 100% care.

Or lots of expensive drugs not available or defacto being denied treatment because it takes so long to get proper diagnosing.

High prices and low supply are issues with competition. If there was competition, prices would be lower and supply would be higher.

It's completely mistaken to think that there isn't really bad economic thinking in public health care.

Not sure how you are using the word economic here. Economics is value free. It can tell you what happens when you do something, it doesn't actually tell you what to do.

That comes from our values, which are different individual to individual.

 

[guerilla]

I agree with this 100% - letting privatized insurance companies

They aren't private in a technical sense. The industry is very tightly regulated, and that regulation prevents

1. Competition

2. Consequences for fraud

Add in all of the government tax breaks skewing the development of the industry, and the endless medicare and medicaid money streaming in to compete for resources with private individuals, but without any regard for cost, and you have the situation today.

In a private system you get what you pay for or the provider goes broke.

 

[Moxie]

They aren't private in a technical sense. The industry is very tightly regulated, and that regulation prevents

1. Competition

2. Consequences for fraud

Add in all of the government tax breaks skewing the development of the industry, and the endless medicare and medicaid money streaming in to compete for resources with private individuals, but without any regard for cost, and you have the situation today.

OK, I won't link to my deja vu thing again, but this is again an oversimplification of problems related to US health care, as everything you wrote applies to Japan for example, yet they don't have the same "situation" that the US has.



The world champion at controlling medical costs is Japan, even though its aging population is a profligate consumer of medical care. On average, the Japanese go to the doctor 15 times a year, three times the U.S. rate. They have twice as many MRI scans and X-rays. Quality is high; life expectancy and recovery rates for major diseases are better than in the United States. And yet Japan spends about $3,400 per person annually on health care; the United States spends more than $7,000...

In the United States, an MRI scan of the neck region costs about $1,500. In Japan, the identical scan costs $98. Under the pressure of cost controls, Japanese researchers found ways to perform the same diagnostic technique for one-fifteenth the American price. (And Japanese labs still make a profit.)

By T.R. Reid -- Five Myths About Health Care in the Rest of the World


The USA has 30% obesity, while Japan has 3%. 90 million Americans are putting themselves at greater risk for things like diabetes and heart attacks. This puts more demand on the system, which increases costs. Obesity rates in the US have doubled in the last 25 years or whatever. Just blaming government ignores this and other factors.