Why an MRI costs $1,080 in America and $280 in France

For all you asshats who say there's no long lines in Canada, suck on this!

My grandfather had a pacemaker put in a day after he was admitted to the local public hospital with a slow heartbeat. Even if you don't want to wait *that* long you can go private if you like, you still get a rebate if you don't have insurance.

I went to a private doctor today by choice, it cost me $75 and I received a medicare rebate of $35. The doctor sent me for an xray and a blood test, both of which I had done today, and both of which were fully covered by our socialist nightmare system.

I can't speak for Canada though.

But then, you don't understand anything about economics, so this doesn't surprise me.

I understand fine, the problem with your argument is that nobody gives a shit about your economics and free market bullshit, all they want is to receive treatment when they need it and not have to sell their home for it.

Australia provides that luxury along with every other civilised nation, apart your own. Your free market healthcare utopia doesn't exist, it never has and it never will. If you have any proof that a deregulated free market healthcare system is in use or has ever worked in history I'd love to see it. The USA is the closest thing to it, and it's fucked.
 


Lots of people are talking about the hiked prices on medication in specific. A lot of this has to do with the FDAs approval process which sometimes can last up to 10 years. The regulatory measures causes R&D to go up as much as 27~ percent. Companies aren't just going to take that hit and smile, they're going to pass the costs onto the consumer.
Criticism of the Food and Drug Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention the way FDA can cause prices to skyrocket when they grant companies a monopoly to a drug that's been around for decades causing the price of said drug to go from $10 to $100.
KV Pharmaceutical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Last time my mum needed an MRI she waited a total of 3 hours in the public system (and this was for a non emergency). I've never heard of any of my friends or family having to wait anymore than a couple of weeks to get an appointment for anything non-elective.

We also have the option of private healthcare if we want it, although most just get it because it works out cheaper tax wise.
Do you live in a densely populated area?
 
If you have any proof that a deregulated free market healthcare system is in use or has ever worked in history I'd love to see it. The USA is the closest thing to it, and it's fucked.

Ahh no, the USA government spends more money per capita on health care than any other nation. That's hardly a free market, especially combined with the corporatism and such.


Singapore's Health Care System: A Free Lunch You Can Sink Your Teeth Into, Bryan Caplan | EconLog | Library of Economics and Liberty
 
I understand fine, the problem with your argument is that nobody gives a shit about your economics and free market bullshit, all they want is to receive treatment when they need it and not have to sell their home for it.
BWAHAHAHA!!! Oh god that was funny... Thank you for the laugh.

Hopefully you too will look back and find it as funny as I just did once you realize that economics don't need anyone to care about them... Economics exist in colonies of termites just as well as they do among Ozzies and us Yanks.

Your argument was basically that you don't care about something that controls many aspects of the situation you care about.

What a nincompoop!

Do as he says and learn some Economics before you make an even bigger fool of yourself next time.
 
BWAHAHAHA!!! Oh god that was funny... Thank you for the laugh.

Your argument was basically that you don't care about something that controls many aspects of the situation you care about.

I care, the average joe with a kid that has cancer doesn't care, he just wants treatment. You've also avoided the part about showing some proof where a deregulated free market healthcare system has ever existed in history, but we're not gonna talk about that are we. It's all pie in the sky pipedreams. and of course, Guerilla, a guy that spams forums for a living knows better than every nation's leader in the history of the world. It's fucken hilarious really.

What a nincompoop!

How's Chrome OS going?
 
I care, the average joe with a kid that has cancer doesn't care, he just wants treatment.
And wouldn't he be served better in a free market system that didn't steal from others and make him wait for service?

You've also avoided the part about showing some proof where a deregulated free market healthcare system has ever existed in history, but we're not gonna talk about that are we. It's all pie in the sky pipedreams.
Of course I can't show proof that it HAS existed, although Singapore came close, but I will be happy to discuss with you how throughout the world the vast majority of industries HAVE existed without government socialization of that industry there, and when it does, it thrives.

Calling the free market a pipe dream is just plain ignorant. Even in your country I'm sure something there is moving freely, competing as it should with unrestricted competition. The only thing that hasn't been done really is making all industries free at the same time somewhere, and we know very well why that is so: Because governments don't like to step aside and say: "I guess you guys don't need us anymore, so we'll stop taxing you and close down shop now."

and of course, Guerilla, a guy that spams forums for a living knows better than every nation's leader in the history of the world. It's fucken hilarious really.
He doesn't claim to "knows better than every nation's leader in the history of the world." But if you read a bit you can tell that G's read quite a lot too. He makes a lot of sense... And you'd think so too if you understood economics.

How's Chrome OS going?
How in the fuck can someone with a memory like yours not retain anything Guerilla or JakeStratham has said over the same time?
 
thank you
g.gif
 
Yes he would, assuming he paid for insurance, otherwise I guess kid dies.
Or pay for SERVICE.... Insurance isn't the only way to buy medical treatment, you know.

So are you going to start whining about how he might not have the money to pay for service nor insurance in a world that the government isn't providing this for you now? You know we're going to have an answer for that too... Why don't you just try thinking about what that answer might be before whining. You can do it.
 
Of course I can't show proof that it HAS existed, although Singapore came close, but I will be happy to discuss with you how throughout the world the vast majority of industries HAVE existed without government socialization of that industry there, and when it does, it thrives.

I simply do not believe that healthcare can be completely private. Lets say you need to see a highly specialised brain surgeon that went through 15 years of training, there's only a few of them in the country but someone with more money needs to see him too. Who do you think will get taken care of? You're going to be outbid. In any other industry you simply can't afford the product and you move on, in the healthcare industry you die instead.

There are too many specialties and not enough supply due to the high barrier of entry (10 years of training), doctors can charge whatever they like and so they should. You can't compare doctors fees like you can a mobile phone. You can't bargain with them and you can't just shop elsewhere.

If you have an answer to that I would genuinely like to hear it.
 
So what if he can't afford it? Bad luck ay? I'm perfectly happy for a small portion of my taxes to go towards this.

Last year a wife of a shop owner I know was on a holiday in US, and while there had a heart problems and had to get operated on. It was serious (and sudden) spent 2 weeks in (according to him) one of the best heart hospitals in US, operations and what not, total bill around $300 000. No travel insurance (stupid) but luckily they could afford the bill without too many problems.
Now I know you would be in the same shit storm if this happened in any country without travel insurance, but the problem is that US citizens would be in this same situation in their own country if they didn't have insurance. And if they can't afford it well bad luck, you can just die.

I would really like to understand how you think this is ok.
 
In the initial draft of Obama's healthcare bill, it would have been legal to purchase drugs from Canada, but come the final version that little clause was left out, so now old ladies are being harassed and prosecuted because they don't pay the 300% markup from US companies. You can thank free market capitalism for that one.
Tell me again how the free market is prosecuting old ladies.
 
There has been a lot of threads lately about healthcare, politics, education, and plenty of other hot topics that plague America. I started thinking about these issues lately. I first wanted to blame corporations.. Then I wanted to blame Obama.. then I realized it's neither of them. The true cause of America's Problems is...














































































































































































































15637793.jpg
 
I simply do not believe that healthcare can be completely private.
Then you simply aren't thinking it through enough. More economics education will help with that. :thumbsup:

Lets say you need to see a highly specialised brain surgeon that went through 15 years of training, there's only a few of them in the country but someone with more money needs to see him too. Who do you think will get taken care of? You're going to be outbid. In any other industry you simply can't afford the product and you move on, in the healthcare industry you die instead.
You do realize that in a free market there will be more of these highly specialised brain surgeons, right? When the market is not regulated, demand creates supply every single time.

There are too many specialties and not enough supply due to the high barrier of entry (10 years of training), doctors can charge whatever they like and so they should. You can't compare doctors fees like you can a mobile phone. You can't bargain with them and you can't just shop elsewhere.
10 years of training is not a barrier to such a career. People who want to be brain surgeons do not say: "I'd love to do it but 10 years it just too long for me to study in order to reach my life's dream..." It's always a matter of money. Surgeons-to-be can't wait 10 years now because IT COSTS TOO MUCH to wait ten years... But with a free market on medical school meeting the demand of the public's need for brain surgeons, it won't cost so much.

Simple economics. Take away all of the restrictions and demand always creates supply, every time.


So what if he can't afford it? Bad luck ay? I'm perfectly happy for a small portion of my taxes to go towards this.
1. You do not get to speak for the rest of your country. No man does, save your PM. Please watch that "George ought to help" video posted above in this thread for more on why it is IMMORAL AND WRONG to think this way in the first place.

2. When giving your consent for the gov to tax YOU, you are giving the Gov more power. Sure, that doesn't sound so bad to an Ozzie in the year 2012, but what happens if by 2025 your country is being run by the same kind of scum we have? They just keep on taking more and more from us and the way they got started was our consent to let them do it many years beforehand... Every little piece of consent to take from you adds up until you eventually have nothing left to give them.


...the problem is that US citizens would be in this same situation in their own country if they didn't have insurance. And if they can't afford it well bad luck, you can just die.

I would really like to understand how you think this is ok.
First of all, VERY LITTLE that happens in my country on a policy level is "OK" with me. But you're representing the situation wrong. We wouldn't just die, we would get a bigass $300k bill here from the hospital. It is illegal for doctors to turn away imminently life-saving treatment here for lack of coin.

Sure we might wake up with our houses in hock, but doctors still swear the Hippocratic oath here and remember, the hippocratic oath is not sworn to a government, but to your industry.

It's the government that brings all of the evil into the healthcare business. The only people who don't see it this way yet simply haven't contemplated the industry without the government in some part of it yet. (It's kinda hard to do, I understand. But one day with study you may do so.)
 
Do you believe that every individual is entitled to basic health care? If not, that's where our difference in opinon stems from and we're never going to agree on the basic economics surrounding health care unless we agree on that question.

If you don't, then let me ask you a question. A person is shot and bleeding to death, if they don't go to hospital then they will die. Should this person be admitted to hospital if they don't have the means to pay for their stay?

Now let's assume another scenario, that person is you - the person who has shot you has stolen your wallet and all other forms of identification. The hospital has no idea whether you will be able to pay for your stay, should they admit you or let you die?

Preventive medicine is cheaper than Remedial/Curative medicine. I'd rather pay more than my fair share than live in a country that doesn't provide basic health cover.

None of the free marketers want to answer this? I'm genuinely interested in your response as I'm yet to hear a coherent answer to this question.