Seal Team 6 Dead

[jsherloc]

I am just witnessing reality unfold and commenting on what I see happening.

What nonsense exactly are you speaking about? A small group of religious extremists have propagated an ideal that the united states and other countries (we dragged into this mess) are actively waging a war against, using VERY questionable military methods in my opinion (and in the opinion of A LOT OF highly intelligent individuals from all walks of life in terms of cost/benefit analysis...mainly in terms of HUMAN LIVES of course and looking to the livelyhood of future generations).

These strategies are questionable to me because I have read history books (and read what consistently happens overtime in similar situations) and every day I see/read about more reasons for young impoverished and oppressed world citizens to truly HATE the united states of america and its citizens....MAINLY because of our questionable foreign military practices/policies in the name of OUR freedom.

If its really about our freedom, why is our freedom worth more than those countries' citizens' freedoms? As long as we get ours, screw them? (because a small minority of THEM will ALWAYS want to kill us, and a small minority succeeded in attacks on our soil and will inevitably continue to do so)? I think we'd be better suited domestically to handle another attack if our military spending was focused on spending HERE....not there. You've said yourself they came here. So now you believe they are just going to stop, no more attacks will happen because of our presence, and future generations will ignore how we destroyed their lives in the name of US freedom/retaliation?

Where does it stop?

 

[REIMktg]

what the hell is in your head? You really need to check your facts. Where are you coming from? Because to say "left field" would be gracious.

I am just witnessing reality unfold and commenting on what I see happening.

What nonsense exactly are you speaking about? A small group of religious extremists have propagated an ideal that the united states and other countries (we dragged into this mess) are actively waging a war against,

Let's start here. By "propagated an ideal" you mean state sponsored terrorism?

using VERY questionable military methods in my opinion (and in the opinion of A LOT OF highly intelligent individuals from all walks of life in terms of cost/benefit analysis...mainly in terms of HUMAN LIVES of course and looking to the livelyhood of future generations).

You jumped from questionable military methods to cost/benefit analysis? You are damn right their were questionable military methods - why we are not using snipers to pick off those that plant IED's? why are we kicking in doors one by one instead of leveling a building? why are we fighting this war like a bunch of pussies?

As for the cost/benefit analysis what are you talking about? Should we have waited for state sponsored terror to attack again and again and again before any response? You progressives do not understand that it was not a matter of "if" we were going to war but "when". Face it. They were at war with us a long time before we were ever at war with them.

These strategies are questionable to me because I have read history books (and read what consistently happens overtime in similar situations) and every day I see/read about more reasons for young impoverished and oppressed world citizens to truly HATE the united states of america and its citizens....MAINLY because of our questionable foreign military practices/policies in the name of OUR freedom.

Yeah how is Germany and Japan doing this time? We hardly oppress those we liberate - are we still oppressing those in Kuwait? How about Grenada? I can really see how we are oppressing the Germans and Japanese. Wake up - we are not the oppressors. Why are progressives such as yourself never concerned over the long term effect on the US citizen who has parents etc blown up by terrorists? Why doesn't anyone think of them?

Because all you care about is the right of Islam to kill infidels, all you care about is their feelings, you do not care about US citizens.

If its really about our freedom, why is our freedom worth more than those countries' citizens' freedoms?

Have you heard of state sponsored terrorism? You do realize that we have yet to carpet bomb any major cities right? They are planning every day to kill us - think about it - they want to kill us. Their religion obviously wants to kill us. They want you dead.

As long as we get ours, screw them? (because a small minority of THEM will ALWAYS want to kill us, and a small minority succeeded in attacks on our soil and will inevitably continue to do so)?

We brought the war to them and kept the war from our soil, for now. It is not a matter of screw them. Are you saying Iraq is better off with Saddam? What about all of those liberated purple fingers - that was a day I will never forget.

You are missing the big picture. State sponsored terror - I addressed all of this in previous posts in this thread.

These states wish us and our allies dead. We cannot allow them to train and fund terrorists and then wait for them to hit our soil before reacting - is that really how you want to handle things?

I think we'd be better suited domestically to handle another attack if our military spending was focused on spending HERE....not there. You've said yourself they came here. So now you believe they are just going to stop, no more attacks will happen because of our presence, and future generations will ignore how we destroyed their lives in the name of US freedom/retaliation?

What about our future generations that see how they kill us? What about the victims of terror worldwide? No one worries about these people.

Where does it stop?

It stops when they stop killing us and join civilized society.

 

[jsherloc]

Also, I'd say at this point, a VERY good argument, based on PLENTY of evidence, could be made that Americans AND NOW GLOBAL citizens are actually LESS safe in a post "war on terror" world.

Your thoughts?

 

[REIMktg]

Also, I'd say at this point, a VERY good argument, based on PLENTY of evidence, could be made that Americans AND NOW GLOBAL citizens are actually LESS safe in a post "war on terror" world.

Your thoughts?

you have no idea how the real world works.

go ahead and show your evidence.

 

[jsherloc]

I'd say all this stops when we realize you can't destroy an idea with bombs. We are just as dumb as the "terrorist" we hate so much then I guess.

They wanted to destroy the american way of life, the AMERICAN IDEA of life and freedom. They thought they could do so with mass violence/death/planes and bombs/etc. They brought Americans together in tragedy, and then we decided that we would be successful in destroying THEIR idea, and THEIR way of life by using those same violent/massive death strategies. Interesting...a decade or so later...annnnnnd?

I am for humanity, call me a progressive absolutely. I value all innocent lives lost and their families affected, but somehow you assume I don't because I am using basic logic to assess a situation (seems there must be some really CRAZY smart people out there in the world that seem to agree with my assessments...maybe they're all progressives too though so that would explain it)

Only in America where being progressive in regards to your respect for global humanity is a negative thing LOL. State-sponsored terrorism does not negate any of my positions, as the people in power are not the primary ones we seem to be punishing/affecting daily with our policies?

I agree, brutal inept leadership has got to go...so we do so by destroying the countries' citizens' way of life? Then rebuild if/when they agree with all of our own ideals? I don't quite follow....

 

[REIMktg]

At least Moxie uses logic and is understandable. You are all over the map.

I'd say all this stops when we realize you can't destroy an idea with bombs. We are just as dumb as the "terrorist" we hate so much then I guess.

What? We cannot destroy an idea with bombs..... ok... and? Do I hate the terrorist for their ideas or for their actions? Which am I interested in stopping?

Charlie Manson had some crazy ideas - we did not fight the idea - we stopped the action.

They wanted to destroy the american way of life, the AMERICAN IDEA of life and freedom. They thought they could do so with mass violence/death/planes and bombs/etc. They brought Americans together in tragedy, and then we decided that we would be successful in destroying THEIR idea, and THEIR way of life by using those same violent/massive death strategies. Interesting...a decade or so later...annnnnnd?

That is not what happened. No one was interested in destroying their way of life except so far as to stop it from hurting our way of life. You are not thinking and are either a troll or very young and simple spewing what your teachers tell you and without understanding the connections yourself. You are like a student that does not quite have a mastery of their argument but has a lot of misc information .

I am for humanity, call me a progressive absolutely. I value all innocent lives lost and their families affected, but somehow you assume I don't because I am using basic logic to assess a situation (seems there must be some really CRAZY smart people out there in the world that seem to agree with my assessments...maybe they're all progressives too though so that would explain it)

Only in America where being progressive in regards to your respect for global humanity is a negative thing LOL. State-sponsored terrorism does not negate any of my positions, as the people in power are not the primary ones we seem to be punishing/affecting daily with our policies?

I agree, brutal inept leadership has got to go...so we do so by destroying the countries' citizens' way of life? Then rebuild if/when they agree with all of our own ideals? I don't quite follow....

You're crazy. Try formulating one argument at a time - you might do better.

 

[jsherloc]

you have no idea how the real world works.

go ahead and show your evidence.

Hmm...for starters I guess the guy over at that FBI place is hallucinating based upon his access to military intelligence and research and what not (from 2010):

http://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/nine-years-after-9-11-confronting-the-terrorist-threat-to-the-u.s

Threats to the Homeland

These threats are merely a sampling of the intelligence we collected and terrorist plots the FBI disrupted during the past year. But they underscore the diversity of the threats facing the homeland and a troubling trend: the rise in U.S.-specific threats. In the past year, the United States has been center stage as the focus for a number of terrorist plots that primarily come from three sources: core al Qaeda, al Qaeda’s affiliates, and homegrown extremists.

Now, I'm sure you could say that this is purely "coincidental" and a current "fact of war" I guess, but I am going to put my money on the fact that our foreign military occupations/policies are now fueling these group's funding/recruitment efforts at an alarmingly quick level. I'm just progressive though, remember....

I'm all for quick decisive elimination of brutal individuals with mass bloodshed on their hands ( bin laden etc), but somehow our government rarely does that. we go somewhere and STAY there and often directly/indirectly oppress the people there while trying to figure out how we can make the most money and get the most benefit from our time there.

and our economy suffers while we spend billions on bombs blowing up beat up 1985 utility vans. if you value american lives more so than any others (like you keep stressing no one else cares about the Americans affected by the war on terror apparently?), you should be concerned that one of those bombs could feed entire cities for a LONNNNNNNNG time (you know how many people are homeless in the U.S.?). it could also provide a lot of medical/rehab assistance to veterans, family members, and others affected by terror attacks.

Our priorities are clearly different and I can certainly respect that, but I don't think I can ever understand your worldview.

 

[jsherloc]

You say:

That is not what happened. No one was interested in destroying their way of life except so far as to stop it from hurting our way of life.

Perhaps I should be more clear on this point. I agree, we weren't or were never interested in destroying these country's citizens way of life (that would be a bit mean spirited don't ya think?)...but we have succeeded in doing so on a number of "levels" all WHILE we attempt to destroy/eradicate EXTREMIST Islamic beliefs and those that hold those beliefs in these countries. So, it is still OK to you then? Just a game of numbers, whack a mole, etc?

Why do you continue to use these personal allegations "student, troll, etc"? I have not once even directed anything I have said at you in that manner. It really hurts intelligent debate and is very ironic given the judgement/accusations when you think about it.

 

[REIMktg]

Hmm...for starters I guess the guy over at that FBI place is hallucinating based upon his access to military intelligence and research and what not (from 2010):

FBI — Nine Years After 9/11: Confronting the Terrorist Threat to the U.S.



Now, I'm sure you could say that this is purely "coincidental" and a current "fact of war" I guess, but I am going to put my money on the fact that our foreign military occupations/policies are now fueling these group's funding/recruitment efforts at an alarmingly quick level. I'm just progressive though, remember....

The article does say that Al Qaeda is "unwavering" in its desire to attack us and that there is a rise in US specific threats. So after 6 years of war there is an uptick in focus on the US homeland from 2009-2010 and that is your proof?

Yeah, they wanted to kill us, and now they want to kill us.

I'm all for quick decisive elimination of brutal individuals with mass bloodshed on their hands ( bin laden etc), but somehow our government rarely does that. we go somewhere and STAY there and often directly/indirectly oppress the people there while trying to figure out how we can make the most money and get the most benefit from our time there.

Who are we oppressing and how is it that we are oppressing them?

and our economy suffers while we spend billions on bombs blowing up beat up 1985 utility vans. if you value american lives more so than any others (like you keep stressing no one else cares about the Americans affected by the war on terror apparently?), you should be concerned that one of those bombs could feed entire cities for a LONNNNNNNNG time (you know how many people are homeless in the U.S.?). it could also provide a lot of medical/rehab assistance to veterans, family members, and others affected by terror attacks.

Our priorities are clearly different and I can certainly respect that, but I don't think I can ever understand your worldview.

The economic argument was made many posts ago, several times by me, do you have something new to add besides generalities?

There already is free non-recourse health care for the poor, there already is plenty of food for everyone. Most homeless are those that cannot care for themselves and the Govt cannot care for them because they have a right to refuse care.

Do you really have all of these simplistic views of the world and economics?

By the way I never said I valued American lives more than any others - I was simply pointing out that you are not looking at both sides of the issue. Unless you are racist you must believe the American victims will be as likely to grow in hatred and sophisticated retaliation as much as those in other countries - to be honest your argument sounded like you are attributing reason to one group and not the other.

 

[jsherloc]

Thank you for that explanation. I can honestly say that it does not AT ALL reflect my daily reality and the world/realty I grew up in, and it doesn't seem to relate AT ALL to the reality of the people I am close with here in the USA, and it doesn't seem to relate at all to the people I encounter daily.

I'd say it probably doesn't reflect the reality that the majority of American's are living now...but that is another argument for another day. I'm just simplistic and progressive I guess.

Why would people in the United States and United States soldiers tell me the same thing regarding this whole fiasco on a daily/weekly basis? Are they all simplistic and progressive?

So the homeless/poor children have enough food, we're all good..go get them terrorists?

LOL I am sorry but this is comical to me...if it was not so "distant" from what everyone I know lives through daily.

I'd suggest you're the one being simplistic in your thinking if you honestly believe we have any chance of creating a safer environment for ANYONE in the longrun by killing innocent people indiscriminately and ruining lives WHILE we kill some NOT INNOCENT people. you end up with more enemies than you started with.

 

[jsherloc]

My point is that, I just don't see how any person with a bit of intelligence could deny the fact that our government's actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc are indirectly creating more terrorist issues and ultimately "funding" these organizations, both in money and "new recruits".

The everyday citizens of these countries had ZERO reason to hate us, most couldn't point out new york on a map, etc. Now, a lot of these innocent people really do hate us. And their children hate us. What are the chances that their children's children will hate us? It is exponential....and we started with small pockets of terrorist cells in certain countries.

Now we have ENTIRE COUNTRIES that hate us (perhaps if we had used different military/educational polices in the past, we wouldn't have this state sponsored terrorism you keep speaking of. it is hard to control educated minds , especially educated minds with technology on a government level as we have been witnessing recently across the arab states). This is reality, whether you believe it or not...it cannot be denied. In my opinion, EDUCATION is the best weapon to change ideas on a mass scale, the arab spring is not perfect and will result in problems...but it is a start and is certainly better than us going over there and "liberating" them like we did in Iraq....but I am sure you will disagree.

 

[kingofsp]

I'm pretty sure this thread is going to change the world and the face of war as we know it.

 

[jsherloc]

Teaaaam Americaaahhhhhh

 

[Suspect Device]

jsherloc,

fuck man. You're the boss!

 

[REIMktg]

You say:
Perhaps I should be more clear on this point. I agree, we weren't or were never interested in destroying these country's citizens way of life (that would be a bit mean spirited don't ya think?)...but we have succeeded in doing so on a number of "levels" all WHILE we attempt to destroy/eradicate EXTREMIST Islamic beliefs and those that hold those beliefs in these countries. So, it is still OK to you then? Just a game of numbers, whack a mole, etc?

Who is attempting to eradicate their beliefs?
Do you understand war? It is always visited on the citizens as a result of the actions of their leaders. I suppose we should not have bombed Germany or Japan either. Do you understand that if you do not win a war, you lose? There is no middle ground. Aggression is real. You can lose your way of life. The state sponsored terrorists want to kill you - kill your families - and they wanted to do this before we entered the war they declared on the West a long time ago. Their religion wants to kill you. Are you listening?

Why do you continue to use these personal allegations "student, troll, etc"? I have not once even directed anything I have said at you in that manner. It really hurts intelligent debate and is very ironic given the judgement/accusations when you think about it.

I have made these accusations because your opinions seem to be a patchwork of the views of others. They do not seem to be well thought out. If I ask an undergraduate a question about finance/economics I get a patchwork of cause/effect that basically answers the question but is not clearly put together. I ask that same question of a graduate student and the answer is much better formulated and I know they have mastery of the subject. You lack mastery in they way you patch together multiple issues and do not stay on target. It is my "read" on your "style". It is meant as constructive criticism so that maybe you should re-think your positions.

Even the "whack-a-mole" comment above. That is cute, but is it your thought? Why did you repeatedly drop that talking point into the arguement? Then I Google'd

"whack a mole" war on terror

And found your daily reading list and where you are getting your piecemeal information.

Thank you for that explanation. I can honestly say that it does not AT ALL reflect my daily reality and the world/realty I grew up in, and it doesn't seem to relate AT ALL to the reality of the people I am close with here in the USA, and it doesn't seem to relate at all to the people I encounter daily.

I'd say it probably doesn't reflect the reality that the majority of American's are living now...but that is another argument for another day. I'm just simplistic and progressive I guess.

What? I looked to a prior post to a reference of "your reality" - I must have missed it.

Why would people in the United States and United States soldiers tell me the same thing regarding this whole fiasco on a daily/weekly basis? Are they all simplistic and progressive?

Tell you what? That we are making enemies? Read Machiavelli three times and understand how you would handle the situation. If the Govt's in place allowed progress and prosperity these "angry heirs" would become tremendous Western patriots. As long as the de-readicalized their religion - which can happen over time.

So the homeless/poor children have enough food, we're all good..go get them terrorists?

No, once again you are over simplifying the situation. You mentioned health care and the homeless. There are a ton of resources available to the homeless. But if we cannot force them into treatment, for the schizophrenics and mentally ill, and we cannot force them to stop drinking or get off drugs, what are we supposed to do? It seems crazy to ask a mentally ill person if they want to live on the streets, in a shelter, or get treatment. They answer the street. That schizophrenic guy that got killed in Fullerton, CA - his dad offered him a home and treatment all of the time - he chose the streets. The homeless that want help - get it. Those that want to drink and do drugs - well what do you want us to do?

Same with food. There is plenty. If someone does not have food then they are either not asking the right people or spending it on the cable bill or drugs/alcohol. You are once again simple in your approach to this - you think it is a lack of funding - it isn't. It is a lack of will on the part of those that are ill - and with current laws we cannot help those that tell us not to help them - its a circle that leaves us with people pissing, crapping, and begging in our streets - unless you live in Fullerton of course.

LOL I am sorry but this is comical to me...if it was not so "distant" from what everyone I know lives through daily.

I'd suggest you're the one being simplistic in your thinking if you honestly believe we have any chance of creating a safer environment for ANYONE in the longrun by killing innocent people indiscriminately and ruining lives WHILE we kill some NOT INNOCENT people. you end up with more enemies than you started with.

We are not killing people indiscriminately - that's BS. If we were the war would have ended a long time ago. Get out of your "social bubble".

Thank you for that explanation. I can honestly say that it does not AT ALL reflect my daily reality and the world/realty I grew up in, and it doesn't seem to relate AT ALL to the reality of the people I am close with here in the USA, and it doesn't seem to relate at all to the people I encounter daily.

I'd say it probably doesn't reflect the reality that the majority of American's are living now...but that is another argument for another day. I'm just simplistic and progressive I guess.

Why would people in the United States and United States soldiers tell me the same thing regarding this whole fiasco on a daily/weekly basis? Are they all simplistic and progressive?

So the homeless/poor children have enough food, we're all good..go get them terrorists?

LOL I am sorry but this is comical to me...if it was not so "distant" from what everyone I know lives through daily.

I'd suggest you're the one being simplistic in your thinking if you honestly believe we have any chance of creating a safer environment for ANYONE in the longrun by killing innocent people indiscriminately and ruining lives WHILE we kill some NOT INNOCENT people. you end up with more enemies than you started with.

My point is that, I just don't see how any person with a bit of intelligence could deny the fact that our government's actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc are indirectly creating more terrorist issues and ultimately "funding" these organizations, both in money and "new recruits".

The everyday citizens of these countries had ZERO reason to hate us, most couldn't point out new york on a map, etc. Now, a lot of these innocent people really do hate us. And their children hate us. What are the chances that their children's children will hate us? It is exponential....and we started with small pockets of terrorist cells in certain countries.

Now we have ENTIRE COUNTRIES that hate us (perhaps if we had used different military/educational polices in the past, we wouldn't have this state sponsored terrorism you keep speaking of. it is hard to control educated minds , especially educated minds with technology on a government level as we have been witnessing recently across the arab states). This is reality, whether you believe it or not...it cannot be denied. In my opinion, EDUCATION is the best weapon to change ideas on a mass scale, the arab spring is not perfect and will result in problems...but it is a start and is certainly better than us going over there and "liberating" them like we did in Iraq....but I am sure you will disagree.

 

[jsherloc]

Who is attempting to eradicate their beliefs?
Do you understand war? It is always visited on the citizens as a result of the actions of their leaders. I suppose we should not have bombed Germany or Japan either. Do you understand that if you do not win a war, you lose? There is no middle ground. Aggression is real. You can lose your way of life. The state sponsored terrorists want to kill you - kill your families - and they wanted to do this before we entered the war they declared on the West a long time ago. Their religion wants to kill you. Are you listening?

I'll go ahead and tackle this. I wasn't aware we were writing our thesis on here, but I'll do my best to meet your grad student policies. US Policy on eradicating beliefs tends to = Homicide. Do those with EXTREMIST, keyword here is EXTREMIST, views and those who commit acts of terror on account of these extremist views deserve to die? In my opinion, absolutely. My beef is that we end up killing more innocent people and ruining the lives of more innocent people in the process of all this...over DECADES...we ain't talkin no 2 week "tensions". So you are not admitting that we have created A LOT MORE potential terrorists with our aggressive overseas miltary actions/occupations/etc?

The fact that you would SERIOUSLY ask me to point out where people have been oppressed during all of these overseas disasters is literally jaw-droppingly "DISTANT" from a reality that no one needs to explain to you, they live it and apparently you do not. (I love how you act like I am "crazy" or spewing "nutso" stuff on here, but yet the brightest minds in the world seem to pretty much ALL agree that we are doing more harm than good in MANY ways at this point as a country/military presence.) I would love to take 50 of the greatest "minds" in the world, sit them down, have them read this discussion and thus both of our viewpoints. Serious question: Do you honestly think they would agree with you and your "worldview"? (I'm not being sarcastic)

We haven't even discussed the casualty rate on both sides in this discussion...the CIVILIAN rates are pretty depressing IMO, especially during certain years.

People with extreme twisted views regarding their religion want to kill us. People of the muslim faith do not want to kill us...religious radicals of the muslim faith want to kill us. This is not that hard to understand...really. How many muslims do you interact with on a daily basis? You must "run and hide" from them then?....as they want to kill you, correct? Jihad and all?

Even the "whack-a-mole" comment above. That is cute, but is it your thought? Why did you repeatedly drop that talking point into the arguement? Then I Google'd

"whack a mole" war on terror

And found your daily reading list and where you are getting your piecemeal information.

You're quite the professor/researcher there. You got me, I'm all over dat HuffPost baby. It is a fitting description of how we handle things generally in my opinion. I'd say there is plenty of evidence of this, especially with the general public/press getting more access to what has been going on in these places (wikileaks, etc) We go based on intelligence, but we've really learned over these last few years that a lot of honest innocent people die due to crappy intelligence, and conveniently often the government/military doesn't want to talk about it much, yet daily it adds up. We do talk about OUR military deaths though, and that we should (still everytime i just think to myself: "what for"? why did this young kid have to die over there, because evidence points to us NOT being safer and thousands of lives lost in the process...so for what? it is just depressing and sad to me). I'm just saying, its kind of like the whole katt william's skit "we call'em insurgents cuz nobody even knows no damn insurgents. 28 insurgents killed? oh ok thats cool...i don't know no damn insurgents"

What? I looked to a prior post to a reference of "your reality" - I must have missed it.

As I mentioned, I don't feel the need to explain the life story of myself and according to (polls talking points global discussions global studies national studies what have you etc), I believe my views tend to be a BIT more "aligned" with everyday American's views on what is taking place right now and the reality they live in. I don't come in contact with people in my everyday life that honestly believe/say things like "there is plenty of food"/if they want help they can get it, etc.

Ever hear of these crazy things called "CHILDREN"?! Ya know what, sometimes these crazy children things don't have a say in their food/shelter opportunities. What about handicapped, physical mental etc? Our programs work good now? You are suggesting that? We don't have growing homeless populations, etc? You are only BSing yourself if you HONESTLY deep down in your heart believe that Americans are "A-OK" in regards to our homeless/hunger/social problems etc. Sometimes it is also compassionate to help those that don't necessarily want help at the beginning...just chalk it up to a progressive human nature thing though I guess.

Tell you what? That we are making enemies? Read Machiavelli three times and understand how you would handle the situation. If the Govt's in place allowed progress and prosperity these "angry heirs" would become tremendous Western patriots. As long as the de-readicalized their religion - which can happen over time.

Well Sir, now I know where YOUR reading material comes from, and I didn't even need a Google search. It is not the citizens fault for the actions of their leaders/radicals. That doesn't fly anywhere. If the KKK goes over to England and kills a black guy, and then then they come over here and search out and bomb KKK members around this country all while killing innocent civilians..that doesn't fly anywhere and logic tells anyone smart that you JUST created a worse disaster than you started with. You act like it is "worth it" somehow? What is the end gamer you are suggesting here? To even compare Germany etc to this discussion n the way you did is seriously laughable too, no need to even respond to that one.

We are not killing people indiscriminately - that's BS. If we were the war would have ended a long time ago. Get out of your "social bubble".

We have certainly killed/tortured plenty of innocent people in this "war on terror", as many soldiers have admitted in courts themselves. I don't know, perhaps "indiscriminately" isn't the best word here...how about "often indirectly" as a substitute.This stuff still goes on, abuses, etc. I am pretty sure I have a much better grasp on "reality" at this point than you do if you are HONESTLY trying to tell me that hundreds of thousands of 100% INNOCENT people have NOT died as an direct/indirect result of the war on terror.

The "social bubble" you refer to must = "the way the majority of intelligent/rational people weigh the current situation at hand here in our country and abroad". It would be hard for me to step out of, as it is based upon sound reasoning... something I believe decisions involving massive amounts of human lives should involve. Different strokes for different folks....

 

[REIMktg]

I tell you - this entire conversation is great comic relief for me. It's like talking to myself when I still believed in what they taught me in college.

I'll go ahead and tackle this. I wasn't aware we were writing our thesis on here, but I'll do my best to meet your grad student policies. US Policy on eradicating beliefs tends to = Homicide.

We are not trying to eradicate beliefs. Only those that act on those beliefs. Yes, some of that action is preemptive and admittedly presumptive at this point. We can agree on that if you want.

My beef is that we end up killing more innocent people and ruining the lives of more innocent people in the process of all this...over DECADES...we ain't talkin no 2 week "tensions". So you are not admitting that we have created A LOT MORE potential terrorists with our aggressive overseas miltary actions/occupations/etc?

This is an inevitable consequence for those that lack the education and understanding of what is happening. A reasonable person would think otherwise - but it seems you hold first world citizens to a standard of reason different than he rest of the world. There are consequences to their actions also. If a guy is planing to kill me and I kill him first will I piss off his kid? Maybe. So I either give the kid the man's assets and explain it to him or kill the kid too. Right now we are leaving the kid with the assets. We could just kill the kid too - is that what you want?

The fact that you would SERIOUSLY ask me to point out where people have been oppressed during all of these overseas disasters is literally jaw-droppingly "DISTANT" from a reality that no one needs to explain to you, they live it and apparently you do not. (I love how you act like I am "crazy" or spewing "nutso" stuff on here, but yet the brightest minds in the world seem to pretty much ALL agree that we are doing more harm than good in MANY ways at this point as a country/military presence.) I would love to take 50 of the greatest "minds" in the world, sit them down, have them read this discussion and thus both of our viewpoints. Serious question: Do you honestly think they would agree with you and your "worldview"? (I'm not being sarcastic)

Your argument lacks any substance at all - it is simply an appeal to something greater without substantiation.

And how would your 50 greatest minds respond to state sponsored terror?

We haven't even discussed the casualty rate on both sides in this discussion...the CIVILIAN rates are pretty depressing IMO, especially during certain years.

All casualties are horrific. We have taken many more casualties than necessary to safeguard the people of these other countries. We do not have to risk soldiers lives to accomplish our goals. But then many more civilians would die. Name another nation so concerned over innocent civilians that they would be willing to let their own soldiers die? Our soldiers know they are risking their lives to eradicate the problem - not to kill everyone nor to eradicate a belief system.

People with extreme twisted views regarding their religion want to kill us. People of the muslim faith do not want to kill us...religious radicals of the muslim faith want to kill us. This is not that hard to understand...really. How many muslims do you interact with on a daily basis? You must "run and hide" from them then?....as they want to kill you, correct? Jihad and all?

The problem is with the primary leaders of this religion. They advocate killing. I have had this argument in other threads and in the end there are not any substantial number of prominent muslims that speak out against killing non-muslims. They speak out against killing innocents - but to them anyone that is not muslim is not innocent.

I have a few Muslim friends (that I used to hang around with daily) - but no I do not interact with them daily because they do not live around me. Your are right most do not want to kill us. But in the end they believe in their inerrant and perfect books which tell them to kill the Jew then the Christian - to expand Islam by the sword. This is a real problem.

I'm all over dat HuffPost baby. It is a fitting description of how we handle things generally in my opinion. I'd say there is plenty of evidence of this, ... We go based on intelligence, but we've really learned over these last few years that a lot of honest innocent people die due to crappy intelligence, ... We do talk about OUR military deaths though, and that we should (still everytime i just think to myself: "what for"? why did this young kid have to die over there, because evidence points to us NOT being safer and thousands of lives lost in the process....."we call'em insurgents cuz nobody even knows no damn insurgents. 28 insurgents killed? oh ok thats cool...i don't know no damn insurgents"

You are an elitist. Our soldiers die protecting their innocent civilians. Progressives are long on criticism and short on solutions. How would you have handled the problem? Oh, call Saddam and all other dictators and tell them you want to build schools that will educate their people. Believe me I would have rather paid Haliburton to build schools. But it is not realistic.

I don't come in contact with people in my everyday life that honestly believe/say things like "there is plenty of food"/if they want help they can get it, etc.

Then you do not understand the problem. You are in a "social bubble". I am very aware of the poor, social programs, indigent programs, etc. There is an option for anyone that wants one. Give me a situation that contradicts what I know to be true.

Ever hear of these crazy things called "CHILDREN"?! Ya know what, sometimes these crazy children things don't have a say in their food/shelter opportunities.

Children that are known about are taken care of - you advocate spying on the citizenry to make certain kids are OK? We have programs for children.

What about handicapped, physical mental etc?

If they want in on a progrma they have options. They have income. They have jobs. Theey have shelter. If they are mentally disabled there are plenty of programs but the state is not allowed by the courts to administer treatment without consent. What should we do about that? There are programs - but there is also court protected personal freedom.

Our programs work good now? You are suggesting that? We don't have growing homeless populations, etc?

You tell me about the growing homeless populations - There are always options to those that want them. There are not any options for those that do not want to make a change in their lives. You do not understand the problem - there are solutions available for everyone.

Give me a scenario without options. A real scenario. I bet you cannot.

You are only BSing yourself if you HONESTLY deep down in your heart believe that Americans are "A-OK" in regards to our homeless/hunger/social problems etc. Sometimes it is also compassionate to help those that don't necessarily want help at the beginning...just chalk it up to a progressive human nature thing though I guess.

It is compassionate to do so but the courts will not allow it. We used to force medical assistance on the mentally ill - it is not allowed any longer. So what is your solution.

It is not the citizens fault for the actions of their leaders/radicals. That doesn't fly anywhere. If the KKK goes over to England and kills a black guy, and then then they come over here and search out and bomb KKK members around this country all while killing innocent civilians..that doesn't fly anywhere and logic tells anyone smart that you JUST created a worse disaster than you started with. You act like it is "worth it" somehow? What is the end gamer you are suggesting here? To even compare Germany etc to this discussion n the way you did is seriously laughable too, no need to even respond to that one.

You suffer from poor logic. In your scenario our police would pick up those KKK members and allow extradition because we are a civilized nation. But if we paid for the training for those KKK members to go over and kill 3,000 people in London and then praised them for their efforts. Then advocated training more such killers and even heralded the day when we could get a nuke to blow up an ally of that country, say Italy. If we did all of that would they have a right to come here and fix the problem - Yes.

We have certainly killed/tortured plenty of innocent people in this "war on terror", as many soldiers have admitted in courts themselves. I don't know, perhaps "indiscriminately" isn't the best word here...how about "often indirectly" as a substitute.

Wow - the power of words. Indirectly is quite different isn't it.

This stuff still goes on, abuses, etc. ... that hundreds of thousands of 100% INNOCENT people have NOT died as an direct/indirect result of the war on terror.

No matter how many have died it is a miniscule fraction of the amount that would have died had we not cared to limit civilian casualties. Never forget that. There are abuses and terrible things that have happened - many have been and will be prosecuted. I am not claiming this is the best way - just the best way we know. You have failed to detail a solution.

The "social bubble" you refer to must = "the way the majority of intelligent/rational people weigh the current situation at hand here in our country and abroad". .

This is proof of your "social bubble".

 

[jsherloc]

Actually, when something happens daily "indirectly", I would venture to guess that many intelligent people start to question whether these events ARE "indiscriminate". the power of words has nothing on the power of lost lives/body counts. We are talking THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of innocent lives...and you act like it is improving our safety longterm, which IMO is both comical/depressing.

How exactly are we safer longterm here in the US from a large scale terrorist attack by funneling all of our money and soldiers over there, etc (please don't tell me "troop loads are decreasing and we'll be GONE soon" or anything like that, it is BS and you know it)?

How exactly is the world safer? I believe the burden of proof is on you and the minority of people that believe the way you do around the world. The rest of us are sick of this crap man. Too many lives lost and for you to say something like "just the best way we know" is just gold...Why are our troops dying daily? why? Ohhh...because it is "just the best way we know". I couldn't write better "American" parody if I tried. Keep whispering that to yourself as our country financially collapses ( i know you mentioned the economics thing before but i am all out of cookies), but yet we keep bombing those 1985 utility vans to make us safer and the world safer.

bring the troops home and clean up our stuff here. no more playing whack a "rabbit" (just for you though LSI might pick it up when you google it). improve and secure our nation's infrastructure and border security/immigration polices. DON'T MAKE 10 problems for every ONE you fail to solve in the first place. That is all I am saying, and it looks we have done just that all around the world lately.

 

[REIMktg]

Actually, when something happens daily "indirectly", I would venture to guess that many intelligent people start to question whether these events ARE "indiscriminate". the power of words has nothing on the power of lost lives/body counts. We are talking THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of innocent lives...and you act like it is improving our safety longterm, which IMO is both comical/depressing.

How exactly are we safer longterm here in the US from a large scale terrorist attack by funneling all of our money and soldiers over there, etc (please don't tell me "troop loads are decreasing and we'll be GONE soon" or anything like that, it is BS and you know it)?

See page 2 of this thread - try post 83. There were others but that is one of them.

How exactly is the world safer? I believe the burden of proof is on you and the minority of people that believe the way you do around the world. The rest of us are sick of this crap man. Too many lives lost and for you to say something like "just the best way we know" is just gold...Why are our troops dying daily? why? Ohhh...because it is "just the best way we know". I couldn't write better "American" parody if I tried.

What would you have done on 9/12? You think you would have prevented it by doing something earlier? What would you have done? Let Saddam take SA in 1991? Maybe if your political party would allow us to use available US energy resources we could have avoided all of this. But you prefer to want your cake and eat it too.

Keep whispering that to yourself as our country financially collapses ( i know you mentioned the economics thing before but i am all out of cookies), but yet we keep bombing those 1985 utility vans to make us safer and the world safer.

The economics are terrible but if you compare it to another attack as I did in previous posts. You act as if we did nothing that nothing would have happened.

bring the troops home and clean up our stuff here. no more playing whack a "rabbit" (just for you though LSI might pick it up when you google it). improve and secure our nation's infrastructure and border security/immigration polices. DON'T MAKE 10 problems for every ONE you fail to solve in the first place. That is all I am saying, and it looks we have done just that all around the world lately.

So if we did nothing to answer 9/11 what do you think would have happened later? Nothing? You live in a bubble. There are people in this world that want you dead. For no other reason than the passport you hold.

You say "Bring people home and clean up issues here" - you think that the troops coming home would change all of the BS that goes on domestically? You think the Border would be secure - neither party wants that so how do you plan to do it? You think that no terrorists would then find time to plan and attack us again? You think we would suddenly spend more on infrastructure? Fat chance.

I see you left the social issues behind and took them off the table....

The Govt's just spent a ton of extra money - where are the roads and bridges? Oh I forgot they are stuck because we are protecting some rabbit or cockroach that is endangered while US citizens lose their livelihoods. You party wants to save the Delta Smelt and lose countless farm worker jobs - how does that help international relations? You increase the price of worldwide food and put thousands of legal immigrant farm workers out of work for the sake of the Delta Smelt ......


You really think you have a handle on the problem? You think the troops coming home is the answer to domestic woes? Wake up friend, the whole system is broken including the propaganda filled educational system that has you arguing without facts and using generalizations and appeals to the majority - wake up - you have been duped. I was once in your shoes - the world is different than what they have taught you.

 

[jsherloc]

Thank you professor. I make no claims to have a handle on the problem, but I will continue to side with the "intelligent" majority in this case...after reviewing what you/and others like you are bringing to the table here in terms of longterm productivity and disregard (call it what you want, what you are doing IS disregarding human lives WITH your support/ideas...just like the people we want to kill)human lives lost while we are supposedly chasing down ghosts in caves.

What is your elite academic and real-life experience/background that allowed you to see through the "majority's lies" that I have apparently been taught and been duped by? You are HONESTLY now coming with THAT angle? Good lord ya'll wildin in here...School of Hard Knocks, etc?

Let me know where I can sign up for the "REAL WORLD" institution that you hopefully intend to create. This way, you can educate all of us youngsters that don't know nothin about nothin about the U S of A. I don't want to be duped anymore sir...show me the way...show me the light.

Bringing our troops home is not THE answer, it is part of the larger answer in the opinion of the vast majority of Americans...and I'd say it is the opinion of the rest of the civilized world. I love how, just because something is clearly not the entire solution, that it should just be ruled out? Shortsighted much? You are the simplistic one my friend, and your words here show us all that pretty clearly.

Let me go ahead and use your "shortsighted" and literally DUMB debate tactics against you below:

Gee man, you keep referring to the delta smelts and environmentalism...you're just all over the place.

^^^That type of stuff usually comes out of the mouths of people that can't fathom/entertain more than one idea at the same time...and if that idea is not THE answer...well then it is worth NOTHING then...right? LOL