The real programmers don't need to outsource- they have already built a software that does all that.
Anyone else hate not being a programmer?
- Thread starter mpbiz
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The real programmers don't need to outsource- they have already built a software that does all that.
There's a world of difference between someone who can type code, and someone who can come up with creative solutions to technical problems, and help streamline operations, ultimately increasing their bottom line and/or decreasing expenditures. Sure, the former one is a commodity, and a cheap one at that. The latter is pretty valuable though.
Outsourcing code = pretty easy, very cheap.
Outsourcing design = you're in for a nightmare.
Design = art, there's no guides to really follow..
Programming = follow a set of rules.
With programming if you know the basics you can Google guides for more advanced things. But with design, you can get inspiration and ideas, but if you don't have an eye for how it will all work out, then it will look horrible.
Also people don't read the code.. So it's easier to get away with bad code.
Much happier knowing how to design.
.....
But rather outsource where I can to save time and $. Time being the most important factor.
Outsourcing design = you're in for a nightmare.
Design = art, there's no guides to really follow..
Programming = follow a set of rules.
With programming if you know the basics you can Google guides for more advanced things. But with design, you can get inspiration and ideas, but if you don't have an eye for how it will all work out, then it will look horrible.
Also people don't read the code.. So it's easier to get away with bad code.
Much happier knowing how to design.
.....
But rather outsource where I can to save time and $. Time being the most important factor.
Programmer + No Marketer = Matt Cutts, Amit Singhal
No (read it old) Programmer + Marketer = Steve Jobs (love the way he launch every apple product)
Programmer + Marketer = Deadly Combination Larry Page, Mark Zuck (hate to spell his surname), (Here Wickedfire - Jon, Guerilla, Mattesh, Derrik, Helpful Fella Bofu
If you are here in Wickedfire then I assume you are more or less a marketer.
Much happier knowing how to design.
.
You know the design is the biggest part of a successful program - and I don't mean the GUI.
I always wanted to be a programmer. At my first corporate job at audio software company I had intense desire to be hired for their developer team but they selected me for tech support and then for testing.
I loved to code while studying. I regret to be not active in programming as of now.
I loved to code while studying. I regret to be not active in programming as of now.
Hire or Learn. Just depends what your goals are.
This guy hired.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw]Steve Jobs: Secrets of Life - YouTube[/ame]
This guy hired.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw]Steve Jobs: Secrets of Life - YouTube[/ame]
I haven't done any programming since I discovered elance back in 1998. Instead I would put together a design document, and appoint *competent* programmer(s) to code up the application to the exact specifications of my design document.
Even though I don't code anymore, I'm the guy that comes up with a creative solution to a technical problem and explain my solution in my design document for the programmer(s) to implement.
Therefore my conclusion is that being a Project Manager with a strong technical background is more important than being a programmer doing the actual coding. I never had a problem finding quality programmers, though I agree that there's a ton of shit coders on elance. To me, that is part of the excitement. I love finding the diamonds in the rough. There's so many of them if you have an eye for this sort of thing.
My suggestion is to learn project management and hire a whole team of coders. That's what I do, and I've been doing it for over a decade now.
For really sensitive projects, I will split up the task across multiple programmers. Each programmer develops a component of the application without knowing how the entire application functions.
Even though I don't code anymore, I'm the guy that comes up with a creative solution to a technical problem and explain my solution in my design document for the programmer(s) to implement.
Therefore my conclusion is that being a Project Manager with a strong technical background is more important than being a programmer doing the actual coding. I never had a problem finding quality programmers, though I agree that there's a ton of shit coders on elance. To me, that is part of the excitement. I love finding the diamonds in the rough. There's so many of them if you have an eye for this sort of thing.
My suggestion is to learn project management and hire a whole team of coders. That's what I do, and I've been doing it for over a decade now.
For really sensitive projects, I will split up the task across multiple programmers. Each programmer develops a component of the application without knowing how the entire application functions.
I think the issue in this thread is that most people have never done a project that requires not just a programmer, but an amazing programmer. It's not until you try to make a complicated application, that's more than a basic dynamic website, you start to realise the problems that outsourcing brings if you have no technical knowledge yourself (or a load of cash/equity to offer for a CTO).
You also assume in the post that a programmer is not able to think like a marketer, and there's a fair few people on this forum who disprove that (Cardine, Dchuk, Mattseh to name a few with SaaS co's).
For most internet marketers, the programming skills are a luxury. For an internet marketer, being able to program is not a vital skill, and you can typically scrape by using cheap coders to help you out with landers or building an admin panel for something. If you want to build software though, or build any kind of company where your technology is one of your competitive advantages, it's an entirely different matter. Pretty much every successful company in silicon valley highlights the importance of having great developers, and they fight tooth and nail to get the very best.
As one example, Hubspot pays a $30,000 referral fee to someone that refers them a developer who they go on to hire. If programming was a commodity, why would a business ever do that? They don't do it for hires in any other area of their business.
An outstanding developer can be literally 10-100x more productive than an average one. A not-so-great developer can actually be negatively productive, due to all the bugs and technical debt they build up, that bring up problems and have to be fixed down the line.
I can't rep you enough for such an awesome explanation.
Nicely put.
Design has so many subsets, even in the context of the web alone, that it's tough to find what you're looking for when you have no idea what you're looking for. If you try to hire a mobile UI designer and you choose someone who has a portfolio full of logos, then you just chose a logo designer to handle your user interface. If you choose a UI designer to illustrate your book cover, same concept.
I won't argue the definition of art, and whether it applies to design, but I will say that under many contexts and depending on the goal of the project, design most definitely has a rulebook and a set of standards that have been proven amongst the industry.
Finding a good designer is no different a challenge than finding a good developer.
If you're going to have a tech based business then you should at the very least know the basics so that:
1) when you outsource something you know how much time and effort will be involved so that you don't end up paying $5,000 for something that took 30 minutes
2) you can spot the type of programmers who say "yes sir I can easily code an iphone app in flash and java it will be no problem" vs the type of programmers who say "it can be done with sql but I think down the road it might hold you back so I would suggest using redis instead"
Great developers are hard to find so when you land one treat them well.
1) when you outsource something you know how much time and effort will be involved so that you don't end up paying $5,000 for something that took 30 minutes
2) you can spot the type of programmers who say "yes sir I can easily code an iphone app in flash and java it will be no problem" vs the type of programmers who say "it can be done with sql but I think down the road it might hold you back so I would suggest using redis instead"
Great developers are hard to find so when you land one treat them well.
This. Don't treat your developers like shit. I go out of my way to make sure my developers know they are appreciated.
Also your entire post was totally spot on. Don't be the pointy haired boss is a good rule of thumb to have.
If you are in internet marketing to build websites on wordpress, adding nice theme, getting contents, getting links and making money then coding is not necessary for you.
But if you have some ideas for some firefox or wordpress plugin or android apps and want to build it or even outsource it then you should have the knowledge of coding. This way you can save your ass and outsource perfectly as well.
But if you have some ideas for some firefox or wordpress plugin or android apps and want to build it or even outsource it then you should have the knowledge of coding. This way you can save your ass and outsource perfectly as well.
There is a massive amount of misunderstanding in this thread about what a good programmer or better yet a software engineer is.
Programming is design, it is creative, and it is art. There is the same awe and wonder when looking at truly stunning code as there is with looking at a fine painting.
Granted maybe not the code the $2 an hour guy in Bangladesh produces, but then he is nothing more than an assembly line worker who writes code.
There are also hidden costs that are hard to quantify by non-programmers which can lead them to think of programmers as mere tools like a hammer wielded by a day laborer.
An example of a hidden cost would be having software developed that while works, uses an unnecessary amount of resources which intern leads to an increase of costs that could otherwise be better utilized elsewhere.
I say hard to quantify because if you don't know what good code vs bad code is, all you can do is trust in the person who wrote it to care that it's optimized properly.
And if that person has no interest or is not vested in the project they have no reason to care, and being paid money is not a reason to care.
After all how would you know if what they produce is good or not.
Programming is design, it is creative, and it is art. There is the same awe and wonder when looking at truly stunning code as there is with looking at a fine painting.
Granted maybe not the code the $2 an hour guy in Bangladesh produces, but then he is nothing more than an assembly line worker who writes code.
There are also hidden costs that are hard to quantify by non-programmers which can lead them to think of programmers as mere tools like a hammer wielded by a day laborer.
An example of a hidden cost would be having software developed that while works, uses an unnecessary amount of resources which intern leads to an increase of costs that could otherwise be better utilized elsewhere.
I say hard to quantify because if you don't know what good code vs bad code is, all you can do is trust in the person who wrote it to care that it's optimized properly.
And if that person has no interest or is not vested in the project they have no reason to care, and being paid money is not a reason to care.
After all how would you know if what they produce is good or not.
Some great posts in this thread. Bluechina this is the direction I'm trying to move in. Come up with the idea, design the mockup, and have a good programmer develop the actual app. More interested in learning code so I can spot shitty code and avoid shitty developers.
Also, another reason is because it would be 100x easier to effectively communicate with developers if I knew how to speak their language. I've told developers in the past what I want to accomplish and then they say something like "Ok, so you want X to do this, Y to function like this, so I'm going to use Z to make A and B function together." and I can't be certain they fully understood me.
I'd also like to be able to spot errors and fix bugs. Having an app developed now and I'd like to be able to add on to it and fix bugs at 3 am by myself when shit hits the fan.
And couldn't agree with you more about diamonds in the rough. I remember talking with you in the past. I had a developer from Pakistan on elance and he was a beast. Spoke perfect English, always understood what I needed done, knew javascript, php, api's, etc. Unfortunately he got a full time gig which really didn't surprise me at all because he was affordable, reliable, and got shit done.
PS. LOL at the haters saying I'm whining. I clearly said I wish I would have learned when I was younger. Because it's easier to retain information when you're younger and I would have been better prepared for today instead of learning for tomorrow.
Keep on selling your shitty wp installs and link packages :banana_sml:
I think the issue in this thread is that most people have never done a project that requires not just a programmer, but an amazing programmer. It's not until you try to make a complicated application, that's more than a basic dynamic website, you start to realise the problems that outsourcing brings if you have no technical knowledge yourself (or a load of cash/equity to offer for a CTO).
You also assume in the post that a programmer is not able to think like a marketer, and there's a fair few people on this forum who disprove that (Cardine, Dchuk, Mattseh to name a few with SaaS co's).
For most internet marketers, the programming skills are a luxury. For an internet marketer, being able to program is not a vital skill, and you can typically scrape by using cheap coders to help you out with landers or building an admin panel for something. If you want to build software though, or build any kind of company where your technology is one of your competitive advantages, it's an entirely different matter. Pretty much every successful company in silicon valley highlights the importance of having great developers, and they fight tooth and nail to get the very best.
As one example, Hubspot pays a $30,000 referral fee to someone that refers them a developer who they go on to hire. If programming was a commodity, why would a business ever do that? They don't do it for hires in any other area of their business.
An outstanding developer can be literally 10-100x more productive than an average one. A not-so-great developer can actually be negatively productive, due to all the bugs and technical debt they build up, that bring up problems and have to be fixed down the line.
Whenever you're ready to start a product just let me know. I know an exceptional marketer on here that's a programmer too. I guess my point was a programmer that's not a marketer too and isn't aware of such awesome marketing forums like wicked. I think you write and explain things very well, by the way
Whenever you're ready to start a product just let me know. I know an exceptional marketer on here that's a programmer too. I guess my point was a programmer that's not a marketer too and isn't aware of such awesome marketing forums like wicked. I think you write and explain things very well, by the way
