Ah, Religion - My Short Story

Jokerr said:
I don't hold a belief that there is no deity, I simply don't believe in God. There's a difference.

Imagine that you're debating against someone who believes in Zeus. He argues that his belief in Zeus is no different from your disbelief in Zeus, i.e. they're both beliefs. Do you see the absurdity in dealing with such a person?

That's what we're dealing with here.
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Then, you're not atheist. You do know that a deity is a god, yes?

I don't see the absurdity because I see them as the same.


Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.

dis·be·lief   
[dis-bi-leef] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.
2.
amazement; astonishment: We stared at the Taj Mahal in disbelief.

Definition of BELIEF

1
: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2
: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3
: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence



From American Atheists | atheism :
Code: 
“Your petitioners are atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.

An atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it, and enjoy it.

An atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.

He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.

He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.

He believes that we are our brother's keepers and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”

To not believe in something is a disbelief, thus atheists believe in the disbelief of a deity, as defined above.
 


mgtarheels said:
Then, you're not atheist. You do know that a deity is a god, yes?

I don't see the absurdity because I see them as the same.


Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.

dis·be·lief   
[dis-bi-leef] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.
2.
amazement; astonishment: We stared at the Taj Mahal in disbelief.

Definition of BELIEF

1
: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2
: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3
: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence



From American Atheists | atheism :
Code: 
“Your petitioners are atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.

An atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it, and enjoy it.

An atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.

He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.

He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.

He believes that we are our brother's keepers and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”
To not believe in something is a disbelief, thus atheists believe in the disbelief of a deity, as defined above.
Click to expand...

Pretty hilarious that you're spending this much time making yourself look like a complete tool.
 
Atheists are not apposed to the belief of a deity, we are open. We believe in what can be proven to be true, and if it cannot be proven to be true then we objectively weigh up the evidence and make a judgement on whether we chose to except or reject something.

If there was even a shred of tangible evidence of a deity then you would find allot of atheists would not be atheists, at the very least they would investigate the possibility. However I can 100% say that that is not the same for "believers".

We are open minded to all possibilities (as long as they can be backed up with fact), you are not.
 
nickster said:
Atheists are not apposed to the belief of a deity, we are open. We believe in what can be proven to be true, and if it cannot be proven to be true then we objectively weigh up the evidence and make a judgement on whether we chose to except or reject something.

If there was even a shred of tangible evidence of a deity then you would find allot of atheists would not be atheists, at the very least they would investigate the possibility. However I can 100% say that that is not the same for "believers".

We are open minded to all possibilities (as long as they can be backed up with fact), you are not.
Click to expand...

As a Christian, I love your rebuttal. That puts it in perspective, and I think ends the debate as to whether athiests are believers of unbelief of whatever.

Nice way of putting that. Athiests are just people who have not found enough proof to believe in God, yet. It is hard to remember that fact when athiests are sceaming and insulting.

Amazing response, and I completely accept your response.
 
nickster said:
Atheists are not apposed to the belief of a deity, we are open. We believe in what can be proven to be true, and if it cannot be proven to be true then we objectively weigh up the evidence and make a judgement on whether we chose to except or reject something.

If there was even a shred of tangible evidence of a deity then you would find allot of atheists would not be atheists, at the very least they would investigate the possibility. However I can 100% say that that is not the same for "believers".

We are open minded to all possibilities (as long as they can be backed up with fact), you are not.
Click to expand...

What the fuck?

"Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. "
source

Seems to me American Atheists disagrees with you.

And what do you mean, "you are not". I have never once stated my opinion on religious or spiritual beliefs in this thread. Point me to what you're talking about.
 
writtenstyle said:
It is hard to remember that fact when athiests are sceaming and insulting.
Click to expand...

I try my hardest not to (as when I was a Christian I had the same stereotype placed on atheists - loud, angry, bitter, etc) be insulting, but now that I'm on the other side of the fence I can see where they're coming from sometimes.

Once you come to the realization that religion is nothing more than a part of human history, your thought process changes completely.

As with most Christians (and all religious), the problem comes down to subconscious (and conscious) fear, which does a mighty fine job at blocking your free will and ability to think for yourself.

Have you researched science as much as religion?
Have you researched other religions as much as Christianity?
Have you researched the many, many contradictions, fallacies, and atrocities in the Bible?
Given research in all the questions above, have you thought about not just the possibility, but the likelihood of organized religion being false?

I'm still in the process of researching, but over the past 6 months I've set out to answer all of those questions myself. So far, the evidence is strongly in favor against religion. The more you look into it and think about it, the clearer it becomes. The first step is realizing that belief and faith in religion is nothing more than a primitive emotional attachment based on fear of the unknown. Once you can detach yourself it becomes incredibly easy to reason and think things out a bit more.
 
writtenstyle said:
Nice way of putting that. Athiests are just people who have not found enough proof to believe in God, yet. It is hard to remember that fact when athiests are sceaming and insulting.

Amazing response, and I completely accept your response.
Click to expand...
Glad you liked his response, I agree with it too. The day some deity shows me his driver's license and something else that makes all the contradictions about his impossible existence go away, I'll believe in him too.

This does, of course, leave the burden of argument to the religious such as yourself. The only thing I can figure that you must like about Nicky's response is that it makes you feel like you are special, such as how God has chosen to show himself to you and not to all atheists.

If this is how you feel, would you mind sharing with us what exactly constituted proof of his existence to you? Keep in mind, whatever it must be, would have to be pretty damn incredible to make us think you aren't just some lazy slob with ultra-low standards on what constitutes proof.
 
SUP3RNOVA said:
No they're not. Agnostics are open to a deity.
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-I'm going to have to go with Nickster on this one; Agnostics are just saying they don't know and perhaps all chances for a deity or otherwise are equal... Atheists aren't LIKELY to believe in a deitey because there is such a burden of proof that says it couldn't possibly fit in with what we see around us.

So if you can 'overturn' that proof, yes, an atheist can believe in god.
 
lukep said:
-I'm going to have to go with Nickster on this one; Agnostics are just saying they don't know and perhaps all chances for a deity or otherwise are equal... Atheists aren't LIKELY to believe in a deitey because there is such a burden of proof that says it couldn't possibly fit in with what we see around us.

So if you can 'overturn' that proof, yes, an atheist can believe in god.
Click to expand...

Bit of a weird argument there as they would then no longer be an atheist, so no, by the very definition of the word, atheists don't believe in god.
 
^You people make me scratch my head... Why in the hell do you think we athiests don't believe in a deity?

Is it because we just harbor a bunch of hate at anything more powerful than us and won't listen to reason when it comes to the subject?

FUCK NO. -It because we 'believe' the logical reasoning against it. If the logical reasons were to be flipped on their head, and suddenly there is a very real and undeniable proof of a deity, then we atheists would be completely insane to still disbelieve.

-Of course it has the same odds as me surviving a swim through the sun, but if that's what happened somehow, what else would atheists be?


Really, the Atheists of the world should just be called the "Rational" or the "Logical." -But that seems to piss off those without logic or ration so we have "settled" for a word that means
"without a god." -Because that is what logic currently points to.
 
lukep said:
FUCK NO. -It because we 'believe' the logical reasoning against it. If the logical reasons were to be flipped on their head, and suddenly there is a very real and undeniable proof of a deity, then we atheists would be completely insane to still disbelieve.
Click to expand...

Exactly correct, but if that were to happen I would no longer call myself an atheist, not sure what the problem is here.
 
lukep said:
If the logical reasons were to be flipped on their head, and suddenly there is a very real and undeniable proof of a deity, then we atheists would be completely insane to still disbelieve.
Click to expand...

So then do you argue that those who are religious are completely insane?
 
mgtarheels said:
Then, you're not atheist. You do know that a deity is a god, yes?

I don't see the absurdity because I see them as the same.

Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.

dis·be·lief   
[dis-bi-leef] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.
2.
amazement; astonishment: We stared at the Taj Mahal in disbelief.

Definition of BELIEF

1
: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2
: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3
: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence



From American Atheists | atheism :
Code: 
“Your petitioners are atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.

An atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it, and enjoy it.

An atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.

He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.

He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.

He believes that we are our brother's keepers and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”

To not believe in something is a disbelief, thus atheists believe in the disbelief of a deity, as defined above.
Click to expand...

What part of "I don't believe in god" didn't you understand? And read my post again, but this time don't be that arrogant to assume that I don't know what "deity" means.

The average theologian (there are exceptions, of course) uses "atheist" to mean a person who denies the existence of a God. Even an atheist would agree that some atheists (a small minority) would fit this definition. However, most atheists would stongly dispute the adequacy of this definition. Rather, they would hold that an atheist is a person without a belief in God. The distiniction is small but important. Denying something means that you have knowledge of what it is that you are being asked to affirm, but that you have rejected that particular concept. To be without a belief in God merely means that yhe term "god" has no importance, or possibly no meaning, to you. Belief in God is not a factor in your life. Surely this is quite different from denying the existence of God. Atheism is not a belief as such. It is the lack of belief.

Atheism: Definitions of atheism
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1. I don't believe in god = disbelief
2. I believe that there is no god = denial

1!=2
 
Jokerr said:
What part of "I don't believe in god" didn't you understand? And read my post again, but this time don't be that arrogant to assume that I don't know what "deity" means.



1. I don't believe in god = disbelief
2. I believe that there is no god = denial

1!=2
Click to expand...

This is where we're presented with definitions, again.

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
The above definition is exactly what #2 says.

dis·be·lief   
[dis-bi-leef] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.


de·ni·al   
[dih-nahy-uhl] Show IPA
–noun
1.
an assertion that something said, believed, alleged, etc., is false: Despite his denials, we knew he had taken the purse. The politician issued a denial of his opponent's charges.
2.
refusal to believe a doctrine, theory, or the like.
3.
disbelief in the existence or reality of a thing.
4.
the refusal to satisfy a claim, request, desire, etc., or the refusal of a person making it.
5.
refusal to recognize or acknowledge; a disowning or disavowal: the traitor's denial of his country; Peter's denial of Christ.
6.
Law . refusal to acknowledge the validity of a claim, suit, or the like; a plea that denies allegations of fact in an adversary's plea: Although she sued for libel, he entered a general denial.
7.
sacrifice of one's own wants or needs; self-denial.
8.
Psychology . an unconscious defense mechanism used to reduce anxiety by denying thoughts, feelings, or facts that are consciously intolerable.
 
And from your own citation,


Oxford English Dictionary (OED), Second Edition

Here is how the OED defines "atheism":

atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

disbelieve 1. trans. Not to believe or credit; to refuse credence to: a. a statement or (alleged) fact: To reject the truth or reality of.

deny

To contradict or gainsay (anything stated or alleged); to declare to be untrue or untenable, or not what it is stated to be.
Logic. The opposite of affirm; to assert the contradictory of (a proposition).
To refuse to admit the truth of (a doctrine or tenet); to reject as untrue or unfounded; the opposite of assert or maintain.
To refuse to recognize or acknowledge (a person or thing) as having a certain character or certain claims; to disown, disavow, repudiate, renounce.
 
SUP3RNOVA said:
Have you researched science as much as religion?
Have you researched other religions as much as Christianity?
Have you researched the many, many contradictions, fallacies, and atrocities in the Bible?
Given research in all the questions above, have you thought about not just the possibility, but the likelihood of organized religion being false?
.
Click to expand...

Yes, I study contradictions, evolution, other religions. I also hang out around athiests all the time in order to see what they believe. I do it to strengthen my belief. That will make some athiests upset that the issues you mentioned actually give me greater faith. But, Most all contradictions are taken out of context. Put in context OR studied in the original language, most contradictions are really not contradictions.

So I guess I approach the discussion from a different standpoint than most Christians you talk to. I actively study athiestic beliefs.

lukep said:
This does, of course, leave the burden of argument to the religious such as yourself. The only thing I can figure that you must like about Nicky's response is that it makes you feel like you are special, such as how God has chosen to show himself to you and not to all atheists.

If this is how you feel, would you mind sharing with us what exactly constituted proof of his existence to you? Keep in mind, whatever it must be, would have to be pretty damn incredible to make us think you aren't just some lazy slob with ultra-low standards on what constitutes proof.
Click to expand...

I dont try to give proof to others. I present my side of the story. That is all I do. At the end of the day and after any discussion, the chances are you and I are going to both be left unswayed by each other.

Nicky's response doesnt make me feel special. I was not trying to take the moral high ground there. I like his statement because he nailed atheism on the head and put it in perspective. I admit, I sometimes get caught up in the debate and forget that athiests arent "unbelievers", they are merely "not believers, yet but are open to the possibility." On the same note. I am a christian who is open to atheist beliefs.

Anyway, his statement busted that other guy who keeps saying unbelief is belief.
 
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