The real Hamas from founding member's son...

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If Mexico was shooting missiles across the border, targeting civilians, how long would it take for the United States to retaliate?

Say Mexico was a much stronger power than the US and shooting those missiles*... Some warmongering fucker (elected by sheeple on the promise of security & strong leadership in this time of war) puts US missiles near a school, the Mexicans kill your kids...

*because your fired your missiles, because they shot theirs, because you... and so on and so on and so on...
 
Say Mexico was a much stronger power than the US and shooting those missiles*... Some warmongering fucker (elected by sheeple on the promise of security & strong leadership in this time of war) puts US missiles near a school, the Mexicans kill your kids...

*because your fired your missiles, because they shot theirs, because you... and so on and so on and so on...

Lazyhippy, you're still approaching this with the belief that Hamas wants peace. That they are only responding to Israel. As long as you have that belief, you will always have flawed analysis.

Hamas wants war. They will always want war. Until you stop believing that the Palestinians are these poor people who just want to live in peace, you will never change your mind.
 
Lazyhippy, you're still approaching this with the belief that Hamas wants peace. That they are only responding to Israel. As long as you have that belief, you will always have flawed analysis.

Hamas wants war. They will always want war. Until you stop believing that the Palestinians are these poor people who just want to live in peace, you will never change your mind.

I have no beliefs (but a lot of ideas and opinions)!

Fuck belief - it implies that we won't change our opinions in light of new evidence.

Fuck Hamas. Fuck the Israeli leadership. The people want peace.

The leaders of Hamas are as representative of the average Palestinian as much as Bush, Blair, Hitler or Stalin was of the average American, Briton, German or Russian.
 
The leaders of Hamas are as representative of the average Palestinian as much as Bush, Blair, Hitler or Stalin was of the average American, Briton, German or Russian.

The leaders of Hamas were elected by a majority of the Palestinians. Their desires coincide. As much are you are trying, you cannot separate a majority of the Palestinians from Hamas. Unfortunately, they share the same goals.
 
The leaders of Hamas were elected by a majority of the Palestinians. Their desires coincide. As much are you are trying, you cannot separate a majority of the Palestinians from Hamas. Unfortunately, they share the same goals.
Simply on the basis of 8 years of rule by GWB, I'm disinclined to agree with that idea.
Not to mention the political corruption that goes on in a place like that would probably be a lot worse than "oops, your little cardboard square for D didn't go all the way out, so your vote doesn't count, but for R I'll look give it a quick poke and jiggle"
 
YouTube - WBS

rgordon: I was actually about the mention the Jordinian land grab.
What I find so weird is that no one ever mentions how Jordan or Egypt refuse to take Palestinian refugees...


Not only that, But there would be an option now to give Gaza back to Egypt and West Bank bank to jordan, but those countries DONT WANT them back because they are full of crazy extremists who they know will attack their governments b/c they are moderate governments...
 
I have no beliefs (but a lot of ideas and opinions)!

Fuck belief - it implies that we won't change our opinions in light of new evidence.

Fuck Hamas. Fuck the Israeli leadership. The people want peace.

The leaders of Hamas are as representative of the average Palestinian as much as Bush, Blair, Hitler or Stalin was of the average American, Briton, German or Russian.

This is where i disagree, and maybe the rot of our different views. I do not believe most of the people of gaza want peace. And i'm not just talking about civilians.

As i mentioned before, look around the world at the behavior of CIVILIAN islamists. They are cruel and Violent even towards their own people. Why do you think that the Palestinians are so different?

It's a cruel and violent culture fueled by a religions that permits, and commands, the killing of jews and Non muslims in general.

They (islamists, including civilians) don't want peace. They want power. Always have. Always will
 
This is where i disagree, and maybe the rot of our different views. I do not believe most of the people of gaza want peace. And i'm not just talking about civilians.

As i mentioned before, look around the world at the behavior of CIVILIAN islamists. They are cruel and Violent even towards their own people. Why do you think that the Palestinians are so different?

It's a cruel and violent culture fueled by a religions that permits, and commands, the killing of jews and Non muslims in general.

They (islamists, including civilians) don't want peace. They want power. Always have. Always will

Most Muslims, like most Christians, blindly follow the traditions of the religion without a second thought about the actual theology.

You seem intelligent.. How the fuck can you think that the average Muslim is any more "cruel and violent" than another human? Sorry man, that just sounds so ignorant.

I spent some time in southern Thailand and Malaysia and met many normal Muslims - happily living their lives, wearing designer jeans and makeup under their burkas, being "bad muslims" by having a drink, regarding praying and going to the mosque in the same way many in the west used to go to church on a sunday - more tradition than true belief. The guys I met in
Muslim lands were some of the friendliest, happiest people I have ever met and as a westerner I felt safer in Malaysia than in some Buddhist parts of Thailand.

If you truely think (or even believe) than Muslims are "cruel and violent"? Then do you also subscribe to other sterotypes? Jews are tight with money? The Irish are stupid? Women are shit drivers? All Americans are loud and annoying...? I hope not.

Most muslim countries are not as developed as their western counterparts. Going back to an earlier point the Sunni/Shia tension and violence is comparable to the Catholics and Protestants just a relatively short time ago. Then look at the crusades... does that mean all Christians were "cruel and violent"? Or were they just living their lives?
 
Most Muslims, like most Christians, blindly follow the traditions of the religion without a second thought about the actual theology.

You seem intelligent.. How the fuck can you think that the average Muslim is any more "cruel and violent" than another human? Sorry man, that just sounds so ignorant.

I spent some time in southern Thailand and Malaysia and met many normal Muslims - happily living their lives, wearing designer jeans and makeup under their burkas, being "bad muslims" by having a drink, regarding praying and going to the mosque in the same way many in the west used to go to church on a sunday - more tradition than true belief. The guys I met in
Muslim lands were some of the friendliest, happiest people I have ever met and as a westerner I felt safer in Malaysia than in some Buddhist parts of Thailand.

If you truely think (or even believe) than Muslims are "cruel and violent"? Then do you also subscribe to other sterotypes? Jews are tight with money? The Irish are stupid? Women are shit drivers? All Americans are loud and annoying...? I hope not.

Most muslim countries are not as developed as their western counterparts. Going back to an earlier point the Sunni/Shia tension and violence is comparable to the Catholics and Protestants just a relatively short time ago. Then look at the crusades... does that mean all Christians were "cruel and violent"? Or were they just living their lives?

I specifically used the word "Islamist" so as not to stereotype ALL muslims. Islamists means the radical muslims. And yes, i do believe that Islamists are more violent because their views teach violence.

Also, i don't think there is anything wrong with certain Stereotypes. People get them for a reason. It doesn't mean they apply to EVERY indavidual, but they can often be generally true.

Truthfully, many Jews i know ARE cheap and careful with money. Why? Because they are only a few generations removed from being a poor european people. So they were careful with every penny they had because they had very little.

My grandmother used to save empty glass jars from things she bought and use them as drinking glasses. That's just the way poor europeans lived.

Does that mean ALL Jews are cheap? Not at all, but is there SOME truth to the Steryotype? Sure. Stryotypes can be dynamic. They change as a cultures conditions and behaviors change.

Also, how come there is nothing wrong with Stereotyping people in a positive way? People always say things like "Mexicans are such hard workers." I don't see any public outrage by Mexicans or anyone else saying "What?!?! how dare you call me a hard worker. Just because I'm mexican, doesn't mean i work hard!"

The truth is that different people have different backgrounds, cultures, values, and religions. And all those things influence their actions. Thats why large groups of people behave a similar way, and thus get stereotyped.

It happens to be that Islamists have a background of violence. And if you look at the actions of them around the world, you will see their violent behavior in protests and attacks on people and you will not see many other nations and people behaving in the same manner. Even the countries in which they live do not behave that way, so it can't be attributed to their surroundings or being "third world"

The problem with Liberals is that they think everyone is equal and so that everyone has the same desires as them; peace, goodnes, etc. It's just not true. Look around the world.

Liberals like to think that their ideas are bigger than reality. That they can change the world with an idea. What idea can you possibly promote that is more appealing to a poor, despondant Islamist than eternal life with 72 virgins and riches? The answer is you can't give them anything. B/c no matter what you say, their lives will be shit, they will still be poor, their friends will still pick on them, people will still hurt them. And so the only thing that appeals to them is the eternity of happiness that awats them..

I don't judge people on an indavidual level and i don't treat indaviduals differently based on stereotypes. But i'm also not blind and i don't try and lie to myself so i can convince myself that i am some allknowing idealist who is pure good and that everyone in the world is like me and wants peace, even though they don't know it yet.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
 
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I thought you might have been referring to the extremists by using the term "Islamist", but as I was talking about the ordinary citizens it didn't quite add up - most of the citizens of the Palestinian territories are not radical. Muslims rather than Islamists if you like.

I agree with you that stereotypes are based on truth, but the problem is when people are judged by association, especially when the associated group encompasses a vast array of different viewpoints - such as Islam, Judaism... or liberalism.
 
I believe that many of the palestinians are extremist and not "Moderate" muslims. That is why they elected the Extremist Hamas. That's why many where full berkas. That's why they hate Jews...

I thought you might have been referring to the extremists by using the term "Islamist", but as I was talking about the ordinary citizens it didn't quite add up - most of the citizens of the Palestinian territories are not radical. Muslims rather than Islamists if you like.

I agree with you that stereotypes are based on truth, but the problem is when people are judged by association, especially when the associated group encompasses a vast array of different viewpoints - such as Islam, Judaism... or liberalism.
 
I believe that many of the palestinians are extremist and not "Moderate" muslims. That is why they elected the Extremist Hamas. That's why many where full berkas. That's why they hate Jews...

I think (not believe) that most don't see themselves that way, but then extreme and extremist are very subjective terms. If only it was a simple as Arabs hate Jews, Jews hate Arabs...

This is an interesting article: BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Gaza conflict: Who is a civilian?
 
Emoshe, that video could play the same but with destroyed Palestinian buildings and dead kids at the end. To me it just highlights how on both sides it's the innocent people suffering while the warmongering leaders are safe. (Great tune though)
 
I thought you might have been referring to the extremists by using the term "Islamist", but as I was talking about the ordinary citizens it didn't quite add up - most of the citizens of the Palestinian territories are not radical. Muslims rather than Islamists if you like.

I agree with you that stereotypes are based on truth, but the problem is when people are judged by association, especially when the associated group encompasses a vast array of different viewpoints - such as Islam, Judaism... or liberalism.

Liberalism doesn't encompass a vast array of different viewpoints - it's narrowminded. Every member marches in lockstep, almost like some bizarre religion.

And most of the Palestinian citizens are NOT radical? Did you see who they elected to represent them? You don't think Hamas is radical? Wow.
 
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