State of affiliate marketing, GURUS, and other things...

[avatar33]

no way 200k on Tinder, i only shared that for a reason that was never making over $1k a month IIRC

well might as well share what I did make $200k on as I think it's dead....
snapsave. an Android app that saved Snapchats without letting sender know.

i got the idea like I get all my app ideas these days, monitor the top grossing lists and copy! i launched a shitty test version I made in 2 days and that made $50 a day out of nothing so I knew demand was there for a better version. i launched that and was making solid $200 a day which I was happy with as I was behind in the rankings on all the competitors.

then Snapchat got onto Google to ban all the saver apps. all my competitors were like 'oh well Google banned us, guess game is over'. i was laughing away as I was buying my VCCs to open multiple new developer accounts, well used to it from the Facebook days. so from Jan 2014 to June 2014 I was the top app on Google Play and Snapchat was exploding then (it's probably 3 times as big now). you would not believe the demand from users, kids mostly. i was peaking 12-13 million impressions a day. the beauty was I was piggybacking off Snapchat's popularity so people were using my app loads, viewing loads of my ads. I was kind of a marked app by then on Google, I was constantly banned though unknown competitors were staying up for months. Google really improved their banning and I couldn't get my app to last longer than a week, it just wasn't worth it anymore.

key takeaways for AMers wanting to get into apps
1) don't be original. it's too risky. copy others from the top grossing lists. remember mgrunin's theft app? i knew straightoff it would go nowhere. it's too original
2) best coders don't make the most money. they have retarded ideas and no hustle. example above is not making new Android dev accounts
3) yes you need to code. it's never too late to learn. some apps are a lot easier than others, stick to the easy ones first. i love coding so I've an advantage there

What's the best monetization model according to you? Charge a small fee ($3-$9) per download or provide it for free and throw ads on the app?

 

[harrymouni]

I agree about not being original. How hard would it be to build the apps you built I despise math which is why I never got into programming.

you do not need any maths to code 99% of stuff. that's bullshit spread by the HN crowd. but people who enjoy maths tend to enjoy coding, i know i like both, not that i'm great at either. the snapchat one was tricky enough but tinder one should be easy enough for beginners. but if that's too hard to do, i've a friend making crappy 'watch fireman sam' apps for android just to get all the kids downloading. it's a simple app that plays an MP4 file from the app with ads. the biggest issue there is opening new dev accounts when they're banned.

What's the best monetization model according to you? Charge a small fee ($3-$9) per download or provide it for free and throw ads on the app?

all depends on the app. first off, you never charge for the actual app these days, it's always free and then an IAP upgrade to unlock or whatever. that's what i did initially with snapsave and definitely lost money even though I made €7k (about $10k back then) in one day when it launched. but i was better off with ads as people were using my app as a snapchat replacement, using it every day. the 30% apple/google cut is very steep as well. so i'd veer towards ads. problem is top grossing list only shows paid apps and not ads, but you can guess what's making money from ads

 

[King.]

had to lol at this line, if it makes money and legal, who cares. not as if we're musicians or filmmakers worried about our art.

i haven't made money in AM since 2011 (then why do i still hang around here? i dunno). did a bit of app development outsourcing but been making money fulltime off apps since 2013. i've said it loads of times here, EVERYBODY has to get into the app game! it's a goldmine, smartphones really are taking over from laptops/desktops. i made over $200k last year on some shitty app that i didn't even look at past June.

i never see posts from other people here in the app game. problem must be that most of ye can't code but if you can make a PHP website you should be able to figure it out.

i'm mystified why the proven coders here aren't in apps, people like Kiopa_Matt, rage9 and mattseh.

What do you think about those of us who aren't coders getting into the app game by hiring or partnering with coders?

Would you go 50/50 with a non coder? What would they have to bring to the table to make it worth it?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I've obtained legit value from Charles Ngo. Do I look at him any differently because he's postured himself in the so-called "guru" game? Absolutely not. In my opinion, it takes a set of big balls to put yourself out there like that. You are your brand in that game.

I fail online ALL THE TIME. Very few people know when I do, because they are my private projects. If you are your brand, everyone can see if you're falling on your face, struggling, and contradicting yourself.

Call me crazy, but I have to tip my hat at someone who has the balls to give that a shot. Most rational people can see right through the pretenders and know who's legit.

 

[cardine]

What do you think about those of us who aren't coders getting into the app game by hiring or partnering with coders?

Would you go 50/50 with a non coder? What would they have to bring to the table to make it worth it?

Let's rephrase the question. What value add do you provide that would make a coder want to give you a portion of the revenue he'd be generating?

 

[CPR_dummy]

Let's rephrase the question. What value add do you provide that would make a coder want to give you a portion of the revenue he'd be generating?

It's funny when you put it that way. Idea guys are a dime a dozen. But I'm sure King plans to do all the marketing and business handling stuff.

Yet someone who can code an app is surely capable of running the business and learning how to do simple app marketing.

But delegating all that marketing work would be useful to a coder, who can continue to go on to the next app. It's a good partnership if you were cranking out lots of apps. Do what you're good at.

 

[King.]

Let's rephrase the question. What value add do you provide that would make a coder want to give you a portion of the revenue he'd be generating?

That's why I was asking, I personally don't see how someone like myself could add value. If I was an app maker and needed advice or marketing, I'd just outsource it.

 

[sgm26]

you do not need any maths to code 99% of stuff. that's bullshit spread by the HN crowd. but people who enjoy maths tend to enjoy coding, i know i like both, not that i'm great at either. the snapchat one was tricky enough but tinder one should be easy enough for beginners. but if that's too hard to do, i've a friend making crappy 'watch fireman sam' apps for android just to get all the kids downloading. it's a simple app that plays an MP4 file from the app with ads. the biggest issue there is opening new dev accounts when they're banned.



all depends on the app. first off, you never charge for the actual app these days, it's always free and then an IAP upgrade to unlock or whatever. that's what i did initially with snapsave and definitely lost money even though I made €7k (about $10k back then) in one day when it launched. but i was better off with ads as people were using my app as a snapchat replacement, using it every day. the 30% apple/google cut is very steep as well. so i'd veer towards ads. problem is top grossing list only shows paid apps and not ads, but you can guess what's making money from ads

I respect the hustle but this reminds me of an affiliate marketer that burns through FB accounts to sling their dating offer. Doesn't it become a huge grind to constantly have to get new developer accounts to keep making and monetizing your apps?

 

[elucidex]

I still see shitty affiliate sites spammed out in Google all the time. Some lasting a long time. Sure its not as easy as it once was, but still very possible. Bing still LOVES spam and affiliate sites too.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Bing still LOVES spam and affiliate sites too.

It's hilarious seeing some websites that were nuked to the nether-regions in Google back ~5 years ago will still be pulling in those 1st page rankings + traffic + $$$ in Bing. Kinda like looking at the Google results 5 years ago...

 

[LazyHippy]

Fucking hell are people still talking about Shoemoney and John Chow? The affiliates really banking are the guys with the price comparison sites running prime time TV ads to push other people's products. Google Simon Nixon for example.

 

[Hurr-Durr]

This is a very interesting thread. I don't have anything specific to say but here's my reflection of AM business in general. Keep in mind I haven't been part of AM since over 3 years now so I'm not up to the details on the nitty gritty. But I'll tell you how I've felt ever since I've left the biz -

I came to affiliate marketing in late 2009 early 2010 at the height of the rebill craze. I personally never made any real money off of rebills but I know there were some who did 6 figs/day off of media buys and it was pretty clear it wasn't going to last forever. Even back then, it was clear that the easiest campaigns were the ones that were getting the most attention, and in turn were the least sustainable. Almost every affiliate out there tried the flog/farticle style promotion with rebill offers and the only shocking part is that it lasted as long as it did. You'd think something so shady would not last more than a couple of years, but if if I recall correctly rebill began in 2007-2008 and lasted till 2011-2012. Jesse Willms alone (allegedly) did close to half a billion in revenue. I'm sure some rebill still exists now, but on a much smaller scale and with a much more legit style of operating.

What this meant back then, and still means today is that the effort required to set up a business is inversely related to its sustainability. So if it's easy for any idiot to set up, sooner than later, one will, and out-sized profits will disappear. The most important thing to realize for anyone who has ever made a dollar online is that easy money is very fickle money. Money made by being an affiliate (ie - by being at the mercy of ad-networks, advertisers and ad-platforms) can be generated without much thought/effort/resources but at the same time it can also disappear at a moment's notice. POF's Markus Frind once said "you don’t build companies that are completely dependent on the whim of another company." To which I say - if you have no capital/resources, it's OK to start off by being on a whim of other companies, but once you have enough clips, you should definitely diversify.

I myself did well in the download/PPI space as that niche was not as competitive on self-serve ad platforms and I discovered that the more niche the item/product, the more sustainable the profits are due to substantially less competition. The more effort I spent building acquiring traffic/setting up an offer, the harder it was for competitors to outsmart me/out-compete me.

Anyway the bottom line is that the smart ones realize that the reality of the game and the fact that easy money never last forever and that not everyone can adapt. So the smart ones saved their money and reinvested it in something more sustainable. The dumb ones who made the easy/quick money burned it all on bling and fast cars, and disappeared in the footnotes of history.

Regarding gurus - the only theory I can come up with is that desperate times call for desperate measures. I have a feeling that Charles Ngo wouldn't be doing as much Guru work as he's doing now if his affiliate income from 2015 was anywhere near his affiliate income of 2012. I could be wrong though.

I think the ultimate measure of financial success isn't necessarily fast cars or bling, but having diverse source of recurring passive income that's enough to support your lifestyle. Looking back, it seems affiliate monies were simply a means to this end.

:2twocents:

 

[ptpatil]

The internet has always been a wild west.

There are plenty of affiliates promoting legit products. Amazon, ebay, CJ, ect

The people who made money for a few months with acai were never real affiliates to begin with. Acai lasted a while but something new always replaces it. Affiliate marketing is better than ever. Now the barrier to entry is alot higher and and the competition has been culled. Now only the real players remain.

The internet is a more settled wild west, like you said the barrier to entry is higher now. Legitimate products always had lower profits than rebills and shitty offers and most "AM" people went for selling shitty ebooks on CJ, dating offers, rebills etc. Those had the highest chances of returning a profit for some attempt at a campaign.

These days the barrier is higher with needs for writing software for data analytics, optimizing ad servomg, tracking etc. its become a legitimate B2B type industry instead of some asshole in his bedroom being able to make money like that colossal bag of dicks Ryan Eagle.

Either way, I'm happier, I find I deal with educated, competent people now that the barrier to entry is higher. I'm not even in the AM space anymore, its so much easier and more fun to actually build cool applications for software on the web than marketing someone else's product and best of all it pays better too.

 

[JohnnyThai]

had to lol at this line, if it makes money and legal, who cares. not as if we're musicians or filmmakers worried about our art.

i haven't made money in AM since 2011 (then why do i still hang around here? i dunno). did a bit of app development outsourcing but been making money fulltime off apps since 2013. i've said it loads of times here, EVERYBODY has to get into the app game! it's a goldmine, smartphones really are taking over from laptops/desktops. i made over $200k last year on some shitty app that i didn't even look at past June.

i never see posts from other people here in the app game. problem must be that most of ye can't code but if you can make a PHP website you should be able to figure it out.

i'm mystified why the proven coders here aren't in apps, people like Kiopa_Matt, rage9 and mattseh.

Thanks for this, as app development is something I've been thinking about getting into for a while now.

I always thought it must be a gold mine considering how huge the industry has become - I mean it's just so obvious; everywhere you look people are staring at their smart phones, but due to the fact that I don't know how to code, I never really knew how or where to start.

Do you have any recommendations of where to begin? I know that you mentioned that you could already code websites.

 

[Meatytreats]

Thanks for this, as app development is something I've been thinking about getting into for a while now.

I always thought it must be a gold mine considering how huge the industry has become - I mean it's just so obvious; everywhere you look people are staring at their smart phones, but due to the fact that I don't know how to code, I never really knew how or where to start.

Do you have any recommendations of where to begin? I know that you mentioned that you could already code websites.

Play around with this: GameSalad - Make Games for iOS, Android & HTML5 - Drag & Drop - No Coding Required. Game creation for everyone

 

[BeerNuts]

Thanks for this, as app development is something I've been thinking about getting into for a while now.

I always thought it must be a gold mine considering how huge the industry has become - I mean it's just so obvious; everywhere you look people are staring at their smart phones, but due to the fact that I don't know how to code, I never really knew how or where to start.

Do you have any recommendations of where to begin? I know that you mentioned that you could already code websites.

Its not as easy as it seems. Even if you get the apps out there is now the massive challenge of being found in the app store. Now its a game of app store SEO that you have no say or control over. Its worse than Google ever was.

 

[JohnnyThai]

Its not as easy as it seems. Even if you get the apps out there is now the massive challenge of being found in the app store. Now its a game of app store SEO that you have no say or control over. Its worse than Google ever was.

Thanks for the advice, but I can get it done.

I've been told SEO doesn't work, PPC doesn't work, SEM doesn't work. Yes it does work.

The problem is people's attitude these days. 99% of shit works when you put the work in.

 

[harrymouni]

Its not as easy as it seems. Even if you get the apps out there is now the massive challenge of being found in the app store. Now its a game of app store SEO that you have no say or control over. Its worse than Google ever was.

all depends on the app. i don't think ASO is that important as long as you make apps people want and are already searching for. there's loads of people now searching for apps that don't exist, if someone codes it, it's easy downloads. of course some apps there's already competition and play store ranking is all about downloads and rating. i buy some fake downloads to get the ball rolling (you need at least 100-200 to be anywhere in results), then ask users in the app to rate the app for some free feature. i sometimes change colors, graphics and name in an app and duplicate upload a few times so i've 4 or 5 apps across dev accounts dominating search results. this is more of the AM hustle that I rarely see other devs do. (apart from the reskinners of course, but they're nearly all games)

note that i'm talking about apps that provide a function that people are actively looking for, not games where people don't know what they want. 2 completely different markets. i will prob never do games.

i've gotten a few PMs with people asking me where to learn how to code and i've no real answers for you, you know yourselves, there's loads of places on Google. if you never did PHP/Python back in AM days you might struggle alright. my post was mainly aimed at people who have done a bit of web coding already

 

[erifdekciw]

Interesting replies.

If this was 5 years ago I'm pretty sure 90% of you would be laughing at the idea of someone becoming a guru, But things change.

I can appreciate the hustle, even if the hustle has become peddling information to newbies.

The one thing that does surprise me is the amount of old school people who now support that decision. Things might be a lot tougher now than I ever imagined.

I'm going to start a new thread based on what I've heard here. I want to get some deep thinking discussions going on here. Nobody wants to share their secrets, but maybe we can talk about other things that lead to some peoples success and others failure.

 

[BeerNuts]

Interesting replies.

If this was 5 years ago I'm pretty sure 90% of you would be laughing at the idea of someone becoming a guru, But things change.

I can appreciate the hustle, even if the hustle has become peddling information to newbies.

The one thing that does surprise me is the amount of old school people who now support that decision. Things might be a lot tougher now than I ever imagined.

I'm going to start a new thread based on what I've heard here. I want to get some deep thinking discussions going on here. Nobody wants to share their secrets, but maybe we can talk about other things that lead to some peoples success and others failure.

I agree. I also think its funny since all this paid forum crap started and we all came back suddenly that STS has actually started to have a few quality discussions on it.