Solitary Confinement for Gradeschoolers

I just think that assuming or calling it a "no-brainer" is oversimplifying a contraversial solution to a challenging problem.
Yeah, it's child abuse, but let's play around with it, see where it leads, right?

But I'm not arguing the morality of it, I'm just annoyed over the implications some people have made about it.
I am always arguing morality. If you want to remove morality from the discussion put me on ignore. Right and wrong matter.

The world you're talking about, where the ends justify the means, is a very dangerous place for children or anyone who isn't in a position to define the ends.

Love you a lot BB, but I wish you gave Gary and I the benefit of the doubt that you give to people who abuse children. We're not actually hurting anyone.

And with that, I am out of this thread.
 


It has taken a ton of my willpower not to respond to this.

I'm willing to listen.

I hope that you're reading that accusation in the context it was intended, and not assuming a bunch of unwritten things about my stance on x, y and z.

But for clarification: By not being willing to reason that the little time-out room is probably not some mastermind attempt at conditioning that part of the population - and Dreamache did clear up the misunderstanding on this - he was blindly not giving the government the benefit of the doubt that perhaps they had nothing to do with this particular incident.

I understand that even arguing in the playground of government is missing the point. But what I'm saying is that sometimes, even in your thinking, it's not unreasonable to say "Hey, this concept does not apply to this situation."
 
Yeah, it's child abuse, but let's play around with it, see where it leads, right?

In this situation a child is going to get abused from a morality standpoint no matter what they do.

1) Prevent the children from going to school. Abuse by denying them an education.
2) Lock them in a box. Abusing them by isolation.
3) Allow every kid they're around and come in contact with to become one of their victims and possibly be afraid to even goto class, because they never know if it's going to be the day where they're beat up. This abuses everyone, but the kid that would be locked in the box.

I'm not saying abusing one child is less than abusing 20, because to me there's no difference: abuse is abuse regardless of scale. Hitler is as bad as Bundy who is as bad as the thug that shot my friend who owned a liqueur store. I think the above list is what boatBurner was trying to articulate.

It really is a tuff situation even morally speaking. This isn't about some kid who talks out in class or makes a paper airplane. It's about kids that are acting violently and assaulting people psychically. If they weren't mentally handicapped they'd probably be arrested and that would be the end of it. I don't even want to get started on how I feel about them arresting kids so I'll leave it at that.

EDIT:

In regards to point 1. You can say that is the best solution, but it's really not. Most people lack the financial resources to home school or provide a private education. Even if they can they're still being forced to pay for a public resource they're no longer permitted to use, because of a disability.
 
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How thoughtful and nice of the prison syst, er, I mean school system to create a room specifically to allow their prisone, er, I mean students to vent their frustration from being held captive against their will.

Damn right, stupid peon sub-human-inferior-age-being mother fuckers, fuck their preferences.
I feel you, I really do. I also saw that you didn't know that particular scenario was referring to a set of special needs students. On this particular topic, however, I think the fact that its intended, optional, therapeutic, non-punishment is geared towards "special needs" students could have a lot to do with the lack of PE/going outside to play/getting exercise.

From what all I've read, the way these areas are supposed to work are as follows. Suppose a child is having trouble calming down and focusing, regardless of the merit of what they are supposed to be working on. One option would be to drug the kid until he or she is a mindless whatever. Another option would be to punish the kid for not being a mindless whatever. Both of these choices suck.

A third option would be to let the kid (not make the kid, because this isn't punishment) go into a safe, supervised environment where he can bounce up and down, jump off of the walls, throw a ball, do flips, scream and yell and whatever else for a short amount of time (8-12 minutes).

Again, from what all I've read on the subject, these aren't supposed to be areas that are closed off. In fact, taking the kid outside to run around seems to be used often as well.

All students used to do this at a lot of schools. It was called PE. If we didn't have formal PE class that day, we went outside to play for about 20 minutes in the morning and for about 20 minutes after lunch. Of course you're going to be calmed down after some physical exertion. It seems like if a kid doesn't just chill out without something like this, then he gets called "special needs" and someone wants to throw some pills down his or her throat.
 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIf2kjwhDQQ"]School Bell Ringing - Sound Effect - YouTube[/ame]

^You want to talk about conditioning.
 
I remember the bad kids would just have a time out, which meant they would sit in a desk in the corner of the room while all the other kids played. This seems to be the same tactic except they made it 100x harsher w/ 4 walls and a door.
 
I know a 4 year old child (of a friend) who that idea would be ideal for - she basically has meltdowns and smashes everything in site until she calms down. TBH it probably would have worked for me too when I was that age, as I did similar.

It's too claustrophobic and confining though... a room would be more appropriate, not a fucking closet.

The idea is to let the anger wear itself out in a safe but unstimulating room, not to scare the shit out of them.

EDIT - didn't watch the whole video, but if it's being used as "punishment", that's totally fucked up. The purpose of things like that is to let the kids safely calm down from violent rage to the point where you can reason with them.
 
I remember the bad kids would just have a time out, which meant they would sit in a desk in the corner of the room while all the other kids played. This seems to be the same tactic except they made it 100x harsher w/ 4 walls and a door.

That works for normal "bad kids". What about the ones would would have thrown the desk through the window? Normal rules don't apply with real rage cases. Of course, the risk is escalation - this would be totally inappropriate for 95% of kids.
 
That works for normal "bad kids". What about the ones would would have thrown the desk through the window? Normal rules don't apply with real rage cases. Of course, the risk is escalation - this would be totally inappropriate for 95% of kids.

Principals office? Which I guess is kind of like this room we're discussing
 
Principals office? Which I guess is kind of like this room we're discussing

Nope, that's something else to get smashed up. You're not talking about rational normal kids here. What happens is a little switch flips in your brain, and you turn into a little ball of rage and violent for anywhere from 30 mins to 2 hours (the longest I've seen it).

At that stage they're a danger to themselves and others. Physically restraining them is one option, but that's a lot harder than it sounds. Even children are very strong in a rage state, and restraint techniques always carry a risk of injuring or killing the person on the receiving end (through positional asphyxia etc.)

If you've never witnessed it, it's pretty hard to understand.

There are some arguments for using isolation to help certain autistic kids, because what happens is that they become overstimulated, and noise and light is torture for them. If that's what she's talking about, then yes, isolation could be helpful.

As I said earlier, there are episodes where I kicked off as a small child where a padded room would have been great. A few times I injured myself by smashing my head on the concrete floor in rage, and once I put my head through glass window, which could have been very serious. The kid I know gives herself nosebleeds by smashing her face into the wall repeatedly if anyone tries to give her a 'timeout'. Again, a padded room would be good for cooling down.

However that's very different from using it as punishment, which is what it appears happened in that NYTimes link. That is despicable and cruel.