Russia Invades Georgia

[fm1234]

posted by popeye:

You are wrong. the Civil War happend because the South seceded from the United States. The resaon of the sucession included the slavery thing but it was not the only reason.

Sorry I was unclear: in the time and place it occurred, slavery was a tangential issue to the secession. It is now largely remembered as the issue. What I was saying was merely that I find this selective posterity ironic in that the "freeing of the slaves" simply created a larger class of slaves living under a more insidious form of slavery than existed before.

So if California decided to dump the US and become it's own country..the government would allow it? NO! it wouldn't. If that meant sending troops into the state to take care of business it would.

Why? Why can't California leave the US?


Frank

 

[fm1234]

Also, I genuinely hate to point this out, because it is one of those things from which people just won't let go, but the CW didn't start because of the secession -- the secession started out peacefully. The war started because Lincoln couldn't get the CSA to come back on his terms, so he invaded them. This is one of those "historical black holes" where the basic, verifiable facts of history are simply discarded in favour of the version which looks best in the textbooks. The CSA seceded under Buchanan, not Lincoln, precisely because they did not feel that their demands would be met under Lincoln and were not inclined to wait another four/eight years for resolution.

But all of that is a whole other long, drawn out, utterly pointless thread that will end with no single poster changing his opinion about what happened regardless of what he reads in the way of historical facts. On a more general, philosophical level, why can't Californians choose to cease to be Americans? I find that question pretty interesting relative to most other politically-related discussions.


Frank

 

[Icecube]

no magics...I've seen on TV that Georgia hosts the ONLY petroleum pipeline that enters Europe outside of Russian territories

nobody starts a war for ideals

 

[Sawya]

U.S media really are pieces of shit. I have been flipping between all the news channels and I have heard very lilttle about this. Georgia (while a small player on the GEO political front) is a US allie.

Russia has no right to invades Georgia nor do they have the right to be in South Ossetia. Russia needs to butt out this is an internal conflict between Georgia and the seperatist.

At least Mccain condemed Russia. O'bama just stated that he urged the fighting to stop.

What the hell. [SIZE=-1]Saakashvili appeared on TV talking peace and then 3 hours later bombards South Ossetia killing 1000 civilians BEFORE Russia even did anything at all. But McCain says Russias the bad guy, OK LOL.
[/SIZE]

 

[erifdekciw]

Russia isn't the bad guy here, Georgia attacked first. But because Georgia is a democratic country which departed from Russia the US is backing Georgia if a full scale attack happens because they don't want Russia controlling the country and Georgia has become a good ally to western countries, Infact theres over 4,000 soldiers in IRAQ right now.

So if russia does decide to make a full scale attack, we either support them like with afghanistan, go in with our military and back them, or we leave georgia to its demise in hopes of not creating a full scale war with russia.

Little stuff like this is what creates world wars, Its a big big problem and with bush at the controls I am worried. Also russias former and current president have always had the goal of reuniting the 15 regions that broke from russia during its fall. So this is a perfect opportunity to gain one of those regions back and I doubt they are gonna back down. especially when they were attacked first.

 

[Nemesis]

Seems like a revenge for Kosovo. Russians are probably going to get away with it because NATO just isn't capable to do anything besides nasty talking. It can't even gather additional 50k troops to save its failing mission in Afghanistan.

Russians have made the same thing you guys did by helping Kosovo. They have helped the smaller nation (South Ossetia) to fight versus their bigger opponent (Georgia).

And one more thing. Now, when Kosovo has made it's independence, all of Europe can make jokes about Serbia!

What does Serbia have in Common with Nokia?
Every year they get smaller...

 

[Old Goat]

Also, I genuinely hate to point this out, because it is one of those things from which people just won't let go, but the CW didn't start because of the secession -- the secession started out peacefully. The war started because Lincoln couldn't get the CSA to come back on his terms, so he invaded them. This is one of those "historical black holes" where the basic, verifiable facts of history are simply discarded in favour of the version which looks best in the textbooks. The CSA seceded under Buchanan, not Lincoln, precisely because they did not feel that their demands would be met under Lincoln and were not inclined to wait another four/eight years for resolution.

But all of that is a whole other long, drawn out, utterly pointless thread that will end with no single poster changing his opinion about what happened regardless of what he reads in the way of historical facts. On a more general, philosophical level, why can't Californians choose to cease to be Americans? I find that question pretty interesting relative to most other politically-related discussions.


Frank

If California seceded from the Union, they would just turn around and apply for foreign aid (due to the financial strain of so many invading Mexicans).

 

[Stanley]

OMG, the fucking idiot spelled the state he lives in wrong. MORON. hahah, I got a good laugh out of that.

Maybe that's because Georgia's primary language is not English? To be fair, why don't you try spelling "America" in Georgian

 

[Stanley]

Russia isn't the bad guy here, Georgia attacked first. But because Georgia is a democratic country which departed from Russia the US is backing Georgia if a full scale attack happens because they don't want Russia controlling the country and Georgia has become a good ally to western countries, Infact theres over 4,000 soldiers in IRAQ right now.

So if russia does decide to make a full scale attack, we either support them like with afghanistan, go in with our military and back them, or we leave georgia to its demise in hopes of not creating a full scale war with russia.

Little stuff like this is what creates world wars, Its a big big problem and with bush at the controls I am worried. Also russias former and current president have always had the goal of reuniting the 15 regions that broke from russia during its fall. So this is a perfect opportunity to gain one of those regions back and I doubt they are gonna back down. especially when they were attacked first.

The US State Dept. already acknowledged absolutely 0% change of sending US military into the region. The EU reaffirmed they're not getting involved either.

The real idiot in this situation is the Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili, for gambling his country's security and economy over a small poor region with a predominately Russian population. He knew full well that Russia would retaliate if Georgian troops would attack the region, but he went through with it anyway - all in hopes that the US and the west would back him - and now that they didn't, he wasted tons of money and thousands are dead because of it.

 

[tweak50]

Why? Why can't California leave the US?


Frank

Not saying I agree with it, but they can't as a result of this ruling
Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[guerilla]

Not saying I agree with it, but they can't as a result of this ruling
Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Founders maintained that the right of secession was a right of the states, and that the federal government can interpret the law, but that does not mean that they alone can interpret the law, the states also have a right to do so (see the Kentucky Resolution). Of course, the state schools never teach kids about the Kentucky or Virgina resolutions, those are parts of history which are meant to be forgotten.

Any state can leave the Union. The bad news is, the federal government will probably force them back by military assault, instead of respecting the sovereignty of the states.

Just read this yesterday.

 

[guerilla]

You are wrong. the Civil War happend because the South seceded from the United States. The resaon of the sucession included the slavery thing but it was not the only reason.

The Civil War happened because Lincoln instigated it.

So if California decided to dump the US and become it's own country..the government would allow it? NO! it wouldn't. If that meant sending troops into the state to take care of business it would. Even though I am not sure why we would want to maintain San Francisco and other Cali cites....but whatever.

The government might not allow it, but that wouldn't make the government right. The people of California should have a right to choose for themselves. How we can support secession for Russian satellite states and Kosovo, but not support secession at home is highly hypocritical.

 

[tweak50]

The Founders maintained that the right of secession was a right of the states

Where are you finding this information from, honestly curious. Everything I've found so far has said that the articles of confederation gave states that right, but when the constitution replaced the articles, every mention to that right was removed.

 

[Ibanez]

Of course, anti russian propaganda is in full swing. I forget what I was watching but some guy called for an international war crime trial for putin, LOL. What an idiot.

The whole reason is that Georgia wanted to bomb the shit of of South Ossetia and destroy everything and everyone and then force them to go to Northern Ossetia and get someone to corrupt a truce and start reconstruction in South Ossetia and flood it with Georgians.

This is nothing but a good ol' fashion ethnic genocide.

Saakashvili thought he would get western military aid, but he won't so he realizes he's screwed. He's hoping he can get good propaganda from the America media to make it look like a war of "Russian Aggression."

Ironically a McCain policy advisor was or maybe still is a lobbyist for the Georgian gov't in DC.

 

[guerilla]

Where are you finding this information from, honestly curious. Everything I've found so far has said that the articles of confederation gave states that right, but when the constitution replaced the articles, every mention to that right was removed.

Lysander Spooner - No Treason II NoTreason

Thomas Jefferson / James Madison - Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That will get your started.

Consider this. If the Federal government gets to interpret the law, and the states can never interpret the law, then it means that the federal government will always rule in it's favor over the states. The Founders knew this, which is why the Federal government was designed with checks and balances, and to be very limited in scope and responsibility. It's primary job is defending the Constitution, not reinforcing a global empire, union or managing commerce, retirement, lead paint, newspapers/radio/television, baseball steroids etc.

 

[tweak50]

Consider this. If the Federal government gets to interpret the law, and the states can never interpret the law, then it means that the federal government will always rule in it's favor over the states. The Founders knew this, which is why the Federal government was designed with checks and balances, and to be very limited in scope and responsibility. It's primary job is defending the Constitution, not reinforcing a global empire, union or managing commerce, retirement, lead paint, newspapers/radio/television, baseball steroids etc.

I'm not saying that letting the Federal government interpret all law is right, in fact I completely disagree with it. I'm just saying how it is with the given issue, and according to the supreme court ruling 74 U.S. 700, no state has the right to secede. So popeye was correct in saying that California could not secede peacefully if they waned to.

 

[Richard]

 

[guerilla]

I'm not saying that letting the Federal government interpret all law is right, in fact I completely disagree with it. I'm just saying how it is with the given issue, and according to the supreme court ruling 74 U.S. 700, no state has the right to secede. So popeye was correct in saying that California could not secede peacefully if they waned to.

No, they could secede peacefully. If there is violence, that is a decision the federal government would make.

It goes to the fundamental questions Spooner poses. Have you consented to the Constitution? Did anyone ask you if you accept the Constitution? Why should you be forced to live under a social contract you may not agree with?

Technically, being born into contract is known as slavery.

 

[tweak50]

No, they could secede peacefully. If there is violence, that is a decision the federal government would make.

Touche

It goes to the fundamental questions Spooner poses. Have you consented to the Constitution? Did anyone ask you if you accept the Constitution? Why should you be forced to live under a social contract you may not agree with?

Technically, being born into contract is known as slavery.

I still need to read that link you posted. Damn thing was way too long to read when you first posted it.

 

[Mike619]

i hope russia fucks georgia up cuz they started the bombing and killed over 1000 soouth ossetians