One for the christians.

[turbolapp]

I thought you were married?

lol. I was referring to him saying being atheist today is considered "cool" like being gay was however many years ago. Honestly, I had no idea that either was considered a "fad".

It does kind of remind me of the idea that my mom is still waiting for me to out grow my "rebellion stage" and "see the light". I'm 31, how long does the rebellion stage last?

 

[LazyHippy]

That is correct. It's recently became very popular for the under 40 crowd to be atheist. Kinda like being gay was cool a few years back. I find this is true especially for the far liberal left. I believe it's a lash back against the conservative right, the war etc.

I do volunteer work with the elderly a couple times a month delivering food to them and I have noticed one thing. I have never met a dying person that was an athiest.

What a load of crap. Islam isn't living in the Middle Ages. Although some Islam countries are certainly not as technologically advanced as some Christian ones if you compare Islamic states to Christian ones in Africa for example Sudan then you'll find the Islamic states more advanced. Does that mean Christianity is still in the Middle Ages too? :error:

There is a reason why the number of atheists and agnostics have grown and will continue to grow. Quite simply more people are realising they don't have to follow their parents religion, and they are teaching their kids the same.

If recent affairs have played a small part in that it is because it has made people think, nothing more.

You are right though to some extent, there probably is some correlation between liberal/libertarian views and atheism/agnosticism. That logical, you'll probably also find that the most authoritarian people are the most religious.

 

[xecutech]

I was 35, but didn't really consider myself a Christian until I was 37. I still have my faults, but do try to attend church with my family, try to understand the bible and love everyone. Some people make it hard to love each other, but i get along with just about anyone.

Remind your mother to read Matthew 7:6 the next time she gives you a hard time about religion.

 

[xecutech]

What a load of crap. Islam isn't living in the Middle Ages. Although some Islam countries are certainly not as technologically advanced as some Christian ones if you compare Islamic states to Christian ones in Africa for example Sudan then you'll find the Islamic states more advanced. Does that mean Christianity is still in the Middle Ages too? :error:

There is a reason why the number of atheists and agnostics have grown and will continue to grow. Quite simply more people are realising they don't have to follow their parents religion, and they are teaching their kids the same.

If recent affairs have played a small part in that it is because it has made people think, nothing more.

You are right though to some extent, there probably is some correlation between liberal/libertarian views and atheism/agnosticism. That logical, you'll probably also find that the most authoritarian people are the most religious.

Isn't this one of the things atheists say that Christian parents are doing? teaching their kids a sense of false religion and etc. So, is it fair to teach your kids there is no God, when in fact no one can prove he doesn't exist anymore than one can prove he does? Do children deserve to have the same facts and make their own opinions? I ask this because I was an atheist and made fun of my children for going to church! How sick was that??? They actually got me to go to church. I learned something from them and realized that what I was doing was wrong.

 

[LazyHippy]

Isn't this one of the things atheists say that Christian parents are doing? teaching their kids a sense of false religion and etc. So, is it fair to teach your kids there is no God, when in fact no one can prove he doesn't exist anymore than one can prove he does? Do children deserve to have the same facts and make their own opinions? I ask this because I was an atheist and made fun of my children for going to church! How sick was that??? They actually got me to go to church. I learned something from them and realized that what I was doing was wrong.

Cheers for the emphasis, although I meant:

"Quite simply more people are realising they don't have to follow their parents religion, and they are teaching their kids the same."

They are teaching their kids to think for themselves, make their own choices. That they don't have to follow their parents' choices.

No one can prove that we weren't created by a giant rabbit and that upon death we all become rabbits... does that mean it is right to teach that to children? Just because it can't be disproved?

 

[dragi]

You can believe there is a God or you can believe there is no God. You can't prove either.

What a load of crap. Islam isn't living in the Middle Ages. Although some Islam countries are certainly not as technologically advanced as some Christian ones if you compare Islamic states to Christian ones in Africa for example Sudan then you'll find the Islamic states more advanced. Does that mean Christianity is still in the Middle Ages too? :error:

When is the last time you heard of a girl stoned to death in Europe? Any Christian country? Let me see, 1472?

 

[turbolapp]

Isn't this one of the things atheists say that Christian parents are doing? teaching their kids a sense of false religion and etc. So, is it fair to teach your kids there is no God, when in fact no one can prove he doesn't exist anymore than one can prove he does? Do children deserve to have the same facts and make their own opinions? I ask this because I was an atheist and made fun of my children for going to church! How sick was that??? They actually got me to go to church. I learned something from them and realized that what I was doing was wrong.

You know sometimes I get lost in the argument and forget my bearings. I would never pass down atheist "teachings" (if there is such a thing) to my child anymore than I would pass down christian teachings. Everyone should be raising children as agnostic. In otherwords, we should constantly be saying to our children "we just don't know" and that's ok. My personal "belief" is that there is nothing out there, which is why I would fall under atheist. But I will still say I don't KNOW.

 

[LazyHippy]

You can believe there is a God or you can believe there is no God. You can't prove either.


When is the last time you heard of a girl stoned to death in Europe? Any Christian country? Let me see, 1472?

I'm sure there's a lot more recent examples, but two extremist Christian groups spring to mind... The KKK and the Nazis.... no need to elaborate, is there?

 

[popeye]

You can believe there is a God or you can believe there is no God. You can't prove either.


When is the last time you heard of a girl stoned to death in Europe? Any Christian country? Let me see, 1472?

This is true. I hear people state that moderate Muslims that don't live within sharia law do not do these type of evil things. My questions is are Muslims that don't live within sharia law actually really Muslims or are they a different religion all together.

Go to Saudi Arabia and state to the Muslims there that you are Muslim but you don't follow sharia law...well you might be holding your tongue in your hand.

 

[LazyHippy]

This is true. I hear people state that moderate Muslims that don't live within sharia law do not do these type of evil things. My questions is are Muslims that don't live within sharia law actually really Muslims or are they a different religion all together.

Go to Saudi Arabia and state to the Muslims there that you are Muslim but you don't follow sharia law...well you might be holding your tongue in your hand.

Oh, come on... At least do a tiny bit of research before making comments like that!

I'm getting a bit lost between the two threads, but do you really think that Christians can pick and chose which bits to believe and follow, yet people of other religions cannot?

You're kinda right about Saudi Arabia, it is in many ways a cruel dictatorship.... and your taxes are helping pay for their new planes.. nice one Bush.

 

[popeye]

I'm sure there's a lot more recent examples, but two extremist Christian groups spring to mind... The KKK and the Nazis.... no need to elaborate, is there?

Are Nazis and KKK religeous groups? Yes these groups are idiots and membership are in very tiny numbers. However they usually do thier "deeds" in the name of thier race...not the Christian God. Don't remember the last time I heard of the KKK or the Nazis cutting off non-belivers heads or bombing large groups of innocent citizens because they do not worship the same way.

Thier is no way anyone can compare the extreme Muslims with the Christian extremist. No way. In your future arguments you might want to mention Tim Mcvey. He is a far better example of the Christian Extremist than the KKK or Nazis.

 

[emp]

Don't even think Christians are above hate crimes.

Religious hate crimes rise fivefold | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
FBI: Jews target of religious hate crimes

And then, there is that whole "us against the muslims" thing being carried out in iraq right now.

Yes, there are aspects of Islam that no one likes, the Sharia (Islamic law) tops that list. The problem here is - aaaah, you guessed it - religion.

Following the bible, yes, there ARE rules for stoning women, etc.. in there. Western societies just don't follow the bible anymore.

Why is that?
Well, there has been this (European, btw) thing called the Renaissance and with it came this idea of secularisation. IN modern societies, church and law are two things. (Or should be, but I don't want to make fun of the US again)

That, my friend is what one calls a good idea(tm)

Any society built on religion is doomed.
Religion is just too slow and inherently inflexible. Hey, it is God's word, right? So we can not change it, right? Please put your hand on this chopping block now, you stole.

Or in Christian terms:
Stone him, he worked on sunday!

So all the great advantages you mention were not made possible by Christianity, but by having religion thrown out of the court room.

BY the way, there are islamic countries who are taking the step towards a modern state, Turkey being one of them.
As Turkey is still a long way from being a good, great, just state, it still has left a lot of the religious bullshit behind it.

But then, I am talking against a wall again, as one can not argue with religion and it's followers.
::emp::

 

[emp]

I'm sure there's a lot more recent examples, but two extremist Christian groups spring to mind... The KKK and the Nazis.... no need to elaborate, is there?

Hmm... Although we are on the same side as atheism is concerned here, you are dead wrong in at least one account.

Nazis have nothing to do with religion.

::emp::

 

[popeye]

Don't even think Christians are above hate crimes.

Religious hate crimes rise fivefold | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
FBI: Jews target of religious hate crimes

And then, there is that whole "us against the muslims" thing being carried out in iraq right now.

Yes, there are aspects of Islam that no one likes, the Sharia (Islamic law) tops that list. The problem here is - aaaah, you guessed it - religion.

Following the bible, yes, there ARE rules for stoning women, etc.. in there. Western societies just don't follow the bible anymore.

Why is that?
Well, there has been this (European, btw) thing called the Renaissance and with it came this idea of secularisation. IN modern societies, church and law are two things. (Or should be, but I don't want to make fun of the US again)

That, my friend is what one calls a good idea(tm)

Any society built on religion is doomed.
Religion is just too slow and inherently inflexible. Hey, it is God's word, right? So we can not change it, right? Please put your hand on this chopping block now, you stole.

Or in Christian terms:
Stone him, he worked on sunday!

So all the great advantages you mention were not made possible by Christianity, but by having religion thrown out of the court room.

BY the way, there are islamic countries who are taking the step towards a modern state, Turkey being one of them.
As Turkey is still a long way from being a good, great, just state, it still has left a lot of the religious bullshit behind it.

But then, I am talking against a wall again, as one can not argue with religion and it's followers.
::emp::

The US was founded upon Christian ideas and values. It has worked great for the last 200 or so years

 

[LazyHippy]

Are Nazis and KKK religeous groups? Yes these groups are idiots and membership are in very tiny numbers. However they usually do thier "deeds" in the name of thier race...not the Christian God. Don't remember the last time I heard of the KKK or the Nazis cutting off non-belivers heads or bombing large groups of innocent citizens because they do not worship the same way.

Thier is no way anyone can compare the extreme Muslims with the Christian extremist. No way. In your future arguments you might want to mention Tim Mcvey. He is a far better example of the Christian Extremist than the KKK or Nazis.

The Nazis certainly were, a (distorted) version of Christianity was central to Hitler's beliefs. Both them and the KKK, like Al Queida, used religion as their reasoning for wanting to change the world.

You want something more recent? How about David Koresh? Or those who feel it is their Christian duty to post bombs to doctors who perform abortions?

Christian and Muslim extremism can easier be compared, but if you go back through history you'll find while both have been horrifically violent, the Christians have generally been had more resources, ensuring that their violence was more destructive.

 

[LazyHippy]

The US was founded upon Christian ideas and values. It has worked great for the last 200 or so years

Not a great argument man... If you want to define the US as Christian and US actions as Christian ones, I disagree but, two words....

Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

[emp]

Actually, the German Nazi party wanted to abolish religion all together.
The Catholics were pursued, while the protestants agreed to work with the regime, so it was deemed alright.

A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

<dl><dd>We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,</dd><dd> Away with incense and Holy Water, </dd><dd>The Church can go hang for all we care, </dd><dd>The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.
</dd></dl>​

::emp::

 

[dragi]

There is a huge difference between being killed because of your nationality/religion/color and being stoned to death because you married a guy you loved. no need to elaborate, is there?

Nationality/religion will be the cause of many crimes in the future, as it is today; we are not over it yet. There is a great progress in overcoming that (EU), but it will take time.

When I said, that the world of Islam is still in Middle Ages, I wasn't thinking about technical progress. I was talking about the level of freedom you enjoy as an individual human being. The position of women, your civil rights, influence of religion in daily politics, …

Yes, the Church is a big player in the politics of Christian countries, but just one of the players. You can say fuck Church, fuck religion, and have a normal life. Try that in Islamic country.

LazyHippy, you are presenting here some abstract picture of Islam that doesn't exist in the reality. KKK did some sick things, but the majority of people in the US are strongly against it. Nazis committed holocaust, but the rest of Christian world fought to stop them. And you said it, they are extremist groups. You are from UK. Tell me how many young Johnny boys died on the shores of Normandy?

Now tell me, is there anyone in Islam who is fighting against this shit we can see on the Internet?

 

[LazyHippy]

Actually, the German Nazi party wanted to abolish religion all together.
The Catholics were pursued, while the protestants agreed to work with the regime, so it was deemed alright.

A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

<dl><dd>We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,</dd><dd> Away with incense and Holy Water, </dd><dd>The Church can go hang for all we care, </dd><dd>The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.
</dd></dl>​

::emp::

As you're in Germany I'll assume you know more than me! What's the deal with Positive Christianity then? Even so they certainly used religion as justification for some of their actions.

 

[stmadeveloper]

The US was founded upon Christian ideas and values. It has worked great for the last 200 or so years

Actually while the US was founded by those that were Christians for the most part we had the sense to add in religious protection for all and the separation of church and state.

The tenets of freedom and the protections in our constitution are what have worked for '200 or so' years.

Ohh - and unlike the bible and governments based on religion we can *(and have) amended our constitution to reflect the attitudes and needs of the people.