Mt.Gox Meltdown

swiftmoney said:
Inb4 Lukep puts a positive spin on it.
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I find it hilarious that you knew I was going to do so.

Could it be because you already knew all of this crap was clear evidence of bitcoin's invincibility, but you were unable to admit it to yourself?

Either help bitcoin grow faster or stop your trolling.
 


lukep said:
you'd be a fool to bet against it.
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Correct. Right now one would be pretty foolish to bet against it.
All of the issues that you mention above are just minor blips in the overall journey, none of which cause any real threat to Bitcoin, hence why no real shits were given.

Convincing the consumer to convert flat into crypto is going to be a tougher sell, especially considering the security concerns. Major hacking scandals in the headlines every week are hardly boosting consumer confidence.

Im sure youre going to respond with a thousand reasons as to why within 12 months the whole world is going to somehow come to understand exacty how the system works and how untouchable crypto is and how everyone is going to live in peace and harmony with governement and banks being a thing of the past and I cant help but think that you must be batshit crazy.
 
swiftmoney said:
Convincing the consumer to convert flat into crypto is going to be a tougher sell, especially considering the security concerns. Major hacking scandals in the headlines every week are hardly boosting consumer confidence.
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This

I think BTC has potential but only as alternative payment option alongside credit cards, paypal, and wire transfers but 99% of consumers aren't going to switch over to it the way lukep thinks because unless you have a dedicated ubuntu machine that's only turned on when you're managing your bitcoin you'll eventually get hacked/keylogged and much like water they follow the path of least resistance. Buying bitcoin simply requires too much time and effort and simply isn't worth it for everyday transactions.
 
swiftmoney said:
Correct. Right now one would be pretty foolish to bet against it.
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That's more like it.


swiftmoney said:
..none of which cause any real threat to Bitcoin....
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So what would you imagine could actually cause a real threat? In which countries?


swiftmoney said:
Convincing the consumer to convert flat into crypto is going to be a tougher sell,
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I'm so not worried about this you just wouldn't believe. There are over 1.2 Million non-empty bitcoin wallets right now. The rate of new wallets accepting coin is doing anything but slowing down. There are over 60,000 vendors accepting btc now. The Porn and Gambling industries have both started accepting it on the Majority of their vendors, and on one major porn site bitcoin already accounts for half of their income.

What's more promising to me is the new whole industries that can't exist under the old banking system. These require bitcoin to exist and are growing daily.

It'll only be seen as a "fringe libertarian" currency for a few more months, tops. Once it's far easier to get your hands on, and most stores allow you to spend it at them, it's going to finally click with everyday consumers that it is just a 'cash-like, fraud-free' checkout option.

swiftmoney said:
especially considering the security concerns. Major hacking scandals in the headlines every week are hardly boosting consumer confidence.
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You mean like the 110 Million+ stolen credit card numbers from Target last week? Now THAT's an insecure system, with much more to lose than what's in your current wallet.

Bitcoin has no possiblity of fraud in the system, since it doesn't transfer personal information at all. It's vastly superior security system makes traditional banking look like a slow-ass, antique relic.

swiftmoney said:
Im sure youre going to respond with a thousand reasons as to why within 12 months the whole world is going to somehow come to understand exacty how the system works and how untouchable crypto is and how everyone is going to live in peace and harmony with governement and banks being a thing of the past...
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No, because I've said it before elsewhere here, many times.

Go find someone on Fiverr to write your blog's content for you... Now you can pay for it in bitcoin. :thumbsup:
 
I think the Libertarian movement behind Bitcoin was great to get it started, but it might be time for a slight shift in ideology.

Bitcoin needs SOME regulation for the mainstream to adopt it. Its gonna need mini-banks with insurance to store people's BTC, so they don't freak out and worry about losing their coins.

Right now, downloading and securing an offline wallet is borderline too complicated for the semi tech-savvy person. And no one wants the responsibility attached with hanging onto a tiny USB where their retirement can accidentally be chewed up by their dog.

Truth be told, 70% of people just want security. They might be sheeple, but they are the sheeple that drive our economy. Bitcoin needs more insurance, a tad bit more regulation, and votes of confidence before it reaches mainstream adoption.

That said, I think this is all coming. Though it remains to be seen how much Bitcoin users dig their heels in the ground fighting for their laissez faire ideology.
 
ayzo said:
...99% of consumers aren't going to switch over to it the way lukep thinks because unless you have a dedicated ubuntu machine that's only turned on when you're managing your bitcoin you'll eventually get hacked/keylogged and much like water they follow the path of least resistance.
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Is it that you lack the imagination to see that things get better over time, or you just don't believe anyone is working on it?

Imagine someone in 1992 saying:

"99% of consumers aren't going to use the internet the way lukep thinks because unless you have a dedicated PC that's only turned on when you're managing your files you'll eventually get hacked/keylogged and much like water they follow the path of least resistance."

Lots of coders made the web a safer place.

Don't think there are lots of coders working on bitcoin wallets and other software now? Search bitcoin on Github sometime...


Gambit said:
Bitcoin needs SOME regulation for the mainstream to adopt it.
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Yeah, because regulators only want to regulate bitcoin A LITTLE BIT. Right? I'm sure that will be enough for them to prevent bitcoin from putting banks out of business...
 
lukep said:
Is it that you lack the imagination to see that things get better over time, or you just don't believe anyone is working on it?

Imagine someone in 1992 saying:

"99% of consumers aren't going to use the internet the way lukep thinks because unless you have a dedicated PC that's only turned on when you're managing your files you'll eventually get hacked/keylogged and much like water they follow the path of least resistance."

Lots of coders made the web a safer place.

Don't think there are lots of coders working on bitcoin wallets and other software now? Search bitcoin on Github sometime...
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How do you make it easier to buy bitcoin when a transaction can't be reversed, is anonymous, and subjects the exchanges/sellers to fraud? How do you make it more secure when a trojan is able to take full control over a computer? All a hacker would have to do is install the software, wait for you to get through the 2 factor authorization, retina scan, thumb print scan, and insta-dna test, then just take over your mouse and keyboard and cash out your wallet. Some 15 year old kids from kuwait did this years ago with e-gold and libertyreserve so why wouldn't they be able to do it with bitcoin?
 
So it was the lack of imagination then. I see.

ayzo said:
How do you make it easier to buy bitcoin when a transaction can't be reversed,
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This is a feature, not a bug. Think of cash. It's like that, not like paypal.

ayzo said:
is anonymous,
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LOLno. It's not at all anonymous, and it's pseudoanonymity is not a problem anywhere you buy it now.


ayzo said:
and subjects the exchanges/sellers to fraud?
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Fraud? Are you thinking about the traditional banks here? I don't follow...


ayzo said:
How do you make it more secure when a trojan is able to take full control over a computer?
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By better programming? 2FA? Any number of tricks or inventions that have yet to be introduced at all?

We might have a good way to not even keep them on PCs with a hardware wallet. Check out Trezor and the Butterfly Labs Bitsafe; a physical separation with no software coming in at all.... That you can use with both your computer and with your phone.

BitSafe-device_v5.jpg



ayzo said:
All a hacker would have to do is install the software, wait for you to get through the 2 factor authorization, retina scan, thumb print scan, and insta-dna test, then just take over your mouse and keyboard and cash out your wallet.
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Wow, if they can do all of that, imagine what they could do to your credit card number!

Like they did with 110+ Million Target credit cards a couple weeks ago.

But you know what? It's actually a pathetic argument to be so in favor of not raising our standards of security, that you'd argue for stifling innovation and going without awesome new money-saving technology just because you don't want to load a freaking malware scanner on your PC.

:throwup:

I know the masses aren't going to flock to Unix and start doing nightly network malware sweeps; but keeping your cash on your computer does and Should require more security than what these sheeple are used to today. We're going to see some natural selection here, both by users and by the wallet programmers... The most "fit" in this case being the programs that best defend against the threats you're thinking about.

Also, you're imagining only the PC environment here... There are ATM network environments, Smartphone environments, SMS environments (Actually SMS will be by far the largest environment soon) and many others. Clearly these others wont' have all of the vulnerabilities PCs have.

To really get up to speed on Bitcoin security, there is no one better on earth to follow than Andreas Antonopoulos. He's now the Chief Security Officer at Blockchain.info, the largest online wallet... Just his stuff on Youtube will put all your fears to rest, I assure you.

Here's some to get you started:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CsJ2HMA2I]Andreas Antonopoulos, Bitcoin Foudation, Fouder RootEleven LLC, Author - YouTube[/ame][ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPiFMuPh1uA]A Bitcoin Discussion with Andreas Antonopoulos - YouTube[/ame]

He talks about exactly this breifly at 13:25 in the second one... Watch all of both of them though... And keep an eye out for his Ted Talk within the month.
 
Your argument regarding fraud protection again is only at the benefit of the merchant, which again is appealing to the minority, hence why business adoption is going to be a lot stronger.
Bitcoin needs to start focusing on the consumers needs, until they do Bitcoin is not going anywhere in a hurry.
You mention credit card fraud, but again, the consumer is protected against fraud. The only loser is the credit card comanies themselves and you dont give a shit about them, so I dont understand your argument.
 
lukep said:
He talks about exactly this breifly at 13:25 in the second one...
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I'm confused again. He starts talking about security, then comes straight out and says "we suck at it". I'm not sure how that's helping your argument any.
 
swiftmoney said:
Your argument regarding fraud protection again is only at the benefit of the merchant, which again is appealing to the minority, hence why business adoption is going to be a lot stronger.
Bitcoin needs to start focusing on the consumers needs, until they do Bitcoin is not going anywhere in a hurry.
You mention credit card fraud, but again, the consumer is protected against fraud. The only loser is the credit card comanies themselves and you dont give a shit about them, so I dont understand your argument.
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actually... it would be the merchant that takes the risk. Not the CC company.
 
swiftmoney said:
Your argument regarding fraud protection again is only at the benefit of the merchant, which again is appealing to the minority, hence why business adoption is going to be a lot stronger.
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If CC value theft was the only thing at stake, I'd say no contest. However, it's one of many problems with modern purchases.

The consumer is already used to cash. Bitcoin behaves exactly like cash that must be teleported. (The value transfers with it, instead of a IOU being fulfilled later by bankers out of your control) Consumers understand how to use cash and what the risks are with cash, but what we haven't gotten them to understand Yet is that it IS in fact like cash, instead of frequent flyer miles or rewards points.

Meanwhile, there are benefits specifically to the consumer:

1. Anti-ID-theft - No need to send your personal info with it, ever, and therefore, no ID theft nor account fraud! (This alone stops hundreds of millions of dollars being stolen from consumers every single month.) On official polling, consumers always say they are more afraid of having their ID stolen than merely having the value of the stolen money stolen.

2. Privacy. - No more porn charges showing up on the ol credit card bill for the wifey to find! (And of course black markets are easier.)

3. Personal safety from all kinds of bad shit. - With a brain or paper wallet, or some Deniable app on your smartphone, you can take your entire life savings out with you and hang out in the worst part of town, and never have to worry that they'll even KNOW you have money on your being. This goes double for governments trying to confiscate your savings, like they did in Cyprus and do to thousands of border-crossers on a daily basis. Deniability is a word you're going to be hearing a lot of, and you can't do deniability with anything physical.

4. Freedom. - Yep, down with central banks & inflation and all that. What, you think there are only like 7 libertarians in the world?​


Does that make more sense? It's just an education matter. Every consumer is going to prefer bitcoin to (Debit) cards once they are educated enough to feel comfortable with bitcoin and not be afraid they'll lose it... I know this because they all have cash on their persons now, and cash absolutely sucks dogshit when compared to bitcoin.


Kiopa_Matt said:
I'm confused again. He starts talking about security, then comes straight out and says "we suck at it". I'm not sure how that's helping your argument any.
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This admittedly isn't his best video on the subject, but it's true, we haven't built up the Computing safety that we truly need yet to protect well enough.

There's going to be all kinds of insurance services and hardware solutions popping up this year that will make bitcoin a whole lot safer against hacks. I personally use paper and an offline unix PC whenever I touch my main stash, and I know they'll make it easier to do so soon, with so many Thousands of talented coders (Yes, that's just bitcoin projects on Github!) being funded by so many millions of $s from Venture Capitalists.

Basically, the innovation engine for the entire rest of the planet has been put on hold to develop the bitcoin infrastructure. Expect to see new solutions to every last little problem you can dream up premier on a daily basis.
 
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