Life in Occupied Palestine

[Eldarion]

I'll be honest, I hate Islam. I'm scared of what it's effect on the world will be. IMO the less Islam the better off everyone will be. I'm an atheist and I'll acknowledge Islam isn't the only religion that has a hand in making the world a worse place but I think it is the most prolific in doing so at least over the last couple hundred years. I hope it can be domesticated like Christianity eventually.

About the conflict specifically I have had strong opinions about it in the past on Israel's side. The Palestinians are paying the price for two failed invasions. I don't think there will ever be peace and admittedly Palestinian territory is so small it's little more than a few big parking lots. I thought why not just forget about making these territories separate and just give Israeli citizenship to the Palestinians. I'm sure there's a 100 reasons why that wouldn't work though.

I try not to pay any attention to this conflict anymore, I rarely ever talk about it and don't believe there is any benefit to wasting too much energy thinking about it. I sympathize with anyone who is living in misery however and I wish the Palestinians weren't suffering. I wish we could all just get along, if we can't like each other could we just not kill each other at least. Fuck this shit.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

@nickster

No offense, but it's pretty tough to defend Israel on these issues. This happens every 2 or 3 years, Israel always goes completely beyond any line of rationality or sanity, and doesn't give two shits about it. They know full well there's no repercussions for their actions, because really, what's someone going to do? Western powers are going to invade Israel, and haul leaders off to the ICC to face war crimes? Not likely.

Israel is committing genocide, pure and simple -- war crimes of the highest degree. They will never be prosecuted for it though. You can try to sugar coat it as much as you want, it's still genocide, and anyone with the slightest bit of common sense realizes it will continue until Palestine is completely eradicated, and consumed as a part of Israel.

That's why if I was Palestinian, I would be doing my damnest to get the fuck out of dodge. To hell with what some holy book written a couple thousand years ago says.

 

[nickster]

@nickster

No offense, but it's pretty tough to defend Israel on these issues. This happens every 2 or 3 years, Israel always goes completely beyond any line of rationality or sanity, and doesn't give two shits about it. They know full well there's no repercussions for their actions, because really, what's someone going to do? Western powers are going to invade Israel, and haul leaders off to the ICC to face war crimes? Not likely.

Israel is committing genocide, pure and simple -- war crimes of the highest degree. They will never be prosecuted for it though. You can try to sugar coat it as much as you want, it's still genocide, and anyone with the slightest bit of common sense realizes it will continue until Palestine is completely eradicated, and consumed as a part of Israel.

That's why if I was Palestinian, I would be doing my damnest to get the fuck out of dodge. To hell with what some holy book written a couple thousand years ago says.

Here is a very important question, if Israel didn't give two shits about the lives and/or western opinion then a) why warn people when they are going to bomb? and most importantly b) why not just flatten the place a la Dresden or Hiroshima/Nagasaki?

Its really where your argument falls flat. Israelis are obviously not purposely targeting civilians otherwise the death toll would be SIGNIFICANTLY more and it makes absolutely no strategic sense to do so. They gain absolutely nothing by killing women and children.

Also why put their soldiers and civilians in any danger when they can just obliterate the other side in less than a day?

The confusion arrises as people say well you can't punish a people for a bunch of terrorists. Well unfortunately these terrorists are the elected government, elected by the people who know full well of their intentions and at the same time they are firing rockets from civilian locations WITH THE SOLE PURPOSE of getting their own people killed and trying to kill civilians on the other side. You really need to look at where the blame lies for their civilian deaths.

Yes you can argue that the amount of people that are killed on each side is disproportionate, however that is not for a lack of trying on Hamas's part and you can't knock the Israelis for being better at not being killed. Should those over 2,500 rockets had landed in civilian populations I can guarantee the death toll on Israelis side would have been significantly higher than the levels seen on the Palestinian side at the moment. Yes they have Iron dome, but as its not 100% effective millions of people need to take shelter almost daily. So what are the Israelis supposed to do? Live in an underground bunker most of their life? Would you?

The reason that the Palestinians don't get the hell out of dodge is that they have NO WHERE to go. No arab country wants them (and no western country would take them). The islamists want them in the firing line as it furthers their cause. You can see this by the fact that they don't send millions in food and medical supplies they send it in bombs and guns. The Palestinian people are just a pawn for them.

This is NOTHING like genocide. Look at the second world war for genocide. Look at Iraq and Syria today. If Israel wanted to commit real genocide it would so easy for them, and guess what there would be fuck all we could do about it.

Oh and by the way Hamas would flatten Israel in a second if it was able to do so and its preferred target IS women and children.

 

[infoslob]

Jews. Muslims.

One side celebrates 9/11. One side is horrified by it.

 

[jonbird]

The reason that the Palestinians don't get the hell out of dodge is that they have NO WHERE to go. No arab country wants them (and no western country would take them). The islamists want them in the firing line as it furthers their cause. You can see this by the fact that they don't send millions in food and medical supplies they send it in bombs and guns. The Palestinian people are just a pawn for them.

This. There are refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria that have been there for nearly 50 years and yet these people are still stateless and not welcomed by their host nation whatsoever.

As inexcusable as Israel's actions seem, they are somewhat inevitable from internal political pressure. The Israelis have a besieged collective consciousness, which is fairly understandable when you consider the trauma of the holocaust and then all your neighbours trying to kill you ever since..

I don't completely agree with this article, but saw it shared by a friend yesterday and it raises some good points: Why Don’t I Criticize Israel? : : Sam Harris

And it is how Israel deals with these people—their own religious lunatics—that will determine whether they can truly hold the moral high ground. And Israel can do a lot more than it has to disempower them. It can cease to subsidize the delusions of the Ultra-Orthodox, and it can stop building settlements on contested land.

And of course, some of the most vehement supporters (both politically and financially) of Israel's less defensible positions are.... Fundamental Christians in the US.

All as bad as each other.

 

[BigWill]

https://twitter.com/hashtag/opsavegaza

 

[davidlee]

nigga die everyday mother fuckers!!!

 

[BigWill]

Israelis are obviously not purposely targeting civilians otherwise the death toll would be SIGNIFICANTLY more and it makes absolutely no strategic sense to do so. They gain absolutely nothing by killing women and children.

Could you please clarify what they are targeting? When they bomb that neighborhood or school. What would be the purpose?

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

Could you please clarify what they are targeting? When they bomb that neighborhood or school. What would be the purpose?

Those were "errant" missiles. They don't count, apparently.

 

[Napolean]

Here is a very important question, if Israel didn't give two shits about the lives and/or western opinion then a) why warn people when they are going to bomb? and most importantly b) why not just flatten the place a la Dresden or Hiroshima/Nagasaki?

The reason that the Palestinians don't get the hell out of dodge is that they have NO WHERE to go. No arab country wants them (and no western country would take them). The islamists want them in the firing line as it furthers their cause.

Hey! We're about to bomb THE SHIT out of your little corner here so you should probably go somewhere else. Where? Hmmm, well.. you can't go that way, or that way.. well that really sucks for you.. Anyways, big bombs happenin' tomorrow, you were warned though!

 

[nickster]

Hey! We're about to bomb THE SHIT out of your little corner here so you should probably go somewhere else. Where? Hmmm, well.. you can't go that way, or that way.. well that really sucks for you.. Anyways, big bombs happenin' tomorrow, you were warned though!

Many people have heeded the warning, got out of the way, and not been killed. Should they have to? Of course not. Please can you voice this and pleased with Hamas to stop using them as fodder.

Could you please clarify what they are targeting? When they bomb that neighborhood or school. What would be the purpose?

Quite possibly the people shooting the rockets from there? Or do you think they just target schools and neighbourhoods on a whim? If so to what purpose?


My point is not that its great that they are warning the people, just the fact that they are doing it dispels most of the myths. For what purpose if they are mindless killers who don't give a shit about public opinion?

 

[dreamache]

I'd hope we can all at least agree that

1. the US shouldn't be giving Israel (along with anyone else) any money; and by extension the US shouldn't be stealing our money
2. these conflicts could be resolved if children weren't indoctrinated with the silly beliefs of sky ghosts and flags.

 

[avatar33]

This. There are refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria that have been there for nearly 50 years and yet these people are still stateless and not welcomed by their host nation whatsoever.

As inexcusable as Israel's actions seem, they are somewhat inevitable from internal political pressure. The Israelis have a besieged collective consciousness, which is fairly understandable when you consider the trauma of the holocaust and then all your neighbours trying to kill you ever since..

I don't completely agree with this article, but saw it shared by a friend yesterday and it raises some good points: Why Don’t I Criticize Israel? : : Sam Harris



And of course, some of the most vehement supporters (both politically and financially) of Israel's less defensible positions are.... Fundamental Christians in the US.

All as bad as each other.

Dude, you need to watch the video in the OP if you think it's easy to just leave if you're Palestinian.

 

[avatar33]

Israel's logic: we bomb schools and hospitals because that's where Hamas terrorists are hiding and launching their attacks from.

Just because Hamas are scumbags doesn't mean you have to be super-scumbags by bombing those buildings housing children, sick and elderly people. You could just send troops on the ground to those locations to locate/neutralize the terrorists and their equipment/launch pads.

 

[nickster]

I'd hope we can all at least agree that

1. the US shouldn't be giving Israel (along with anyone else) any money; and by extension the US shouldn't be stealing our money
2. these conflicts could be resolved if children weren't indoctrinated with the silly beliefs of sky ghosts and flags.

Well we can agree with 1) if we also agree that the US shouldn't be giving the palestinians billions of dollars too.

2) Totally agree with this, but at the same time you may be surprised to learn that Israel is the most secular country in the middle east and massively more secular than the US. Funny that people believe that Israel is a Jewish state the same way as Saudi Arabia is a Muslim one it isn't. Almost 50% of Israel are Secular (I think in the US its around 15%). Only around 20% are Orthodox and from that an even small % are Ultra-Orthodox.

Israel is not about religion. The Jews went there in the first place because of the religion they were born into, not because they wanted to be separate from others, but because they didn't want to be killed.

 

[King.]

Anyways, big bombs happenin' tomorrow, you were warned though!

Tomorrow? They give them just a few minutes. Imagine that, a few minutes in the middle of the night to get your wife and kids and any vital possessions you can muster. And even then where do they go? It's a fucking horrifying situation.

Here is a very important question, if Israel didn't give two shits about the lives and/or western opinion then a) why warn people when they are going to bomb? and most importantly b) why not just flatten the place a la Dresden or Hiroshima/Nagasaki?

Because if they were to 'flatten' the place they wouldn't get away with it. Even the US wouldn't be able to turn a blind eye.

Its really where your argument falls flat. Israelis are obviously not purposely targeting civilians otherwise the death toll would be SIGNIFICANTLY more and it makes absolutely no strategic sense to do so. They gain absolutely nothing by killing women and children.

Over 1200 dead in 2-3 weeks, 80% of those civilians. I don't know how many more women and children they would need to kill for you to consider it 'significant'.

Also why put their soldiers and civilians in any danger when they can just obliterate the other side in less than a day?

The confusion arrises as people say well you can't punish a people for a bunch of terrorists. Well unfortunately these terrorists are the elected government, elected by the people who know full well of their intentions and at the same time they are firing rockets from civilian locations WITH THE SOLE PURPOSE of getting their own people killed and trying to kill civilians on the other side. You really need to look at where the blame lies for their civilian deaths.

70% of the population is below the poverty line and one of the biggest things that tends to shock people that are ignorant on this subject is just how young the gaza population is. Almost half the population (43%) is under 14, and two third are under 24 (link) Now can you imagine being a young, hot-headed adolescent who's seen nothing but death and destruction and pain and misery all his life voting for anything other than a reactionary party that looks like it can get shit done? You think these people have been able to enjoy the same convenient lifestyles and upbringings like the rest of us? They're the products of their environment, they're pissed off, angry, easy to radicalise, so yes, it's easy to see why Hamas gets voted in.

Yes you can argue that the amount of people that are killed on each side is disproportionate, however that is not for a lack of trying on Hamas's part and you can't knock the Israelis for being better at not being killed. Should those over 2,500 rockets had landed in civilian populations I can guarantee the death toll on Israelis side would have been significantly higher than the levels seen on the Palestinian side at the moment. Yes they have Iron dome, but as its not 100% effective millions of people need to take shelter almost daily. So what are the Israelis supposed to do? Live in an underground bunker most of their life? Would you?

First of all, Israel has been getting $3BILLION in aid from the US every year since 1985, so obviously they are 'better' at not getting killed, no shit.

Those shitty little palestinian rockets don't do shit. Most of them get intercepted and the ones that do land do a fucking pathetic amount of damage, everyone knows this and so do the Israeli authorities. But the answer to stopping these annoying rockets isn't to go and destory the only power plant they have, hospitals, schools, UN shelters, and hundreds of women and children.

 

[nickster]

Israel's logic: we bomb schools and hospitals because that's where Hamas terrorists are hiding and launching their attacks from.

Just because Hamas are scumbags doesn't mean you have to be super-scumbags by bombing those buildings housing children, sick and elderly people. You could just send troops on the ground to those locations to locate/neutralize the terrorists and their equipment/launch pads.

Its not about being super-scumbags its about defending your people from further attacks by neutralising the threat.

If you have a ground incursion in the way you are thinking (i.e. people with guns) there would be an out and out massacre on both sides.

 

[Muad'dib]

I'd hope we can all at least agree that

[*]these conflicts could be resolved if children weren't indoctrinated with the silly beliefs of sky ghosts and flags.
[/LIST]

If they weren't indoctrinated with "silly" beliefs of "sky ghosts" or "flags", then what would they be indoctrinated with? Nevermind the fact that Communism calls for atheism and has killed tens of millions of people. Conflicts will happen regardless of what people believe in. If you're calling for an anarchist system you just make it easier for an authoritarian figure to come in and take the reins.

Indoctrination will happen no matter what due to how the human brain works. It's hilariously pathetic how easy it is, to, over time, influence one's perception of how the world works. And if I had to choose how people would be "indoctrinated", I'd much rather that it be a system that tells people to good and to honor their neighbors rather than just to pursue nihilistic, hedonistic pleasure because YOLO

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

My point is not that its great that they are warning the people, just the fact that they are doing it dispels most of the myths. For what purpose if they are mindless killers who don't give a shit about public opinion?

If you believe Israel is being civil in their actions, then it's pretty much impossible to discuss anything relating to this issue with you.

Imagine what would have happened if news reports came out during Iraq and Afghanistan due to US military turning UN sanctioned hospitals, schools, and so on into a hole in the ground?

 

[nickster]

Tomorrow? They give them just a few minutes. Imagine that, a few minutes in the middle of the night to get your wife and kids and any vital possessions you can muster. And even then where do they go? It's a fucking horrifying situation.

To the roof of the building?

Again is it not conceivable to place any of the blame at those who are putting these families purposely in the line of fire?

Because if they were to 'flatten' the place they wouldn't get away with it. Even the US wouldn't be able to turn a blind eye.

Really? Its not the message I am getting from the media and FB shares.

Over 1200 dead in 2-3 weeks, 80% of those civilians. I don't know how many more women and children they would need to kill for you to consider it 'significant'.

Misquote on your part, I said "significantly more". It is significant and horrifying, but in such a densely populated area it could be significantly more if Israel really wanted to target civilians.

They're the products of their environment, they're pissed off, angry, easy to radicalise, so yes, it's easy to see why Hamas gets voted in.

100% true which explains why peace is not something that is desired by them. They desire the eradication of Jews, not a peaceful settlement on any terms. So what should the government of Israel do?

First of all, Israel has been getting $3BILLION in aid from the US every year since 1985, so obviously they are 'better' at not getting killed, no shit.

Those shitty little palestinian rockets don't do shit. Most of them get intercepted and the ones that do land do a fucking pathetic amount of damage, everyone knows this and so do the Israeli authorities. But the answer to stopping these annoying rockets isn't to go and destory the only power plant they have, hospitals, schools, UN shelters, and hundreds of women and children.

So the children of Israel should live in fear for their lives on a daily basis and have to just get used to going into bomb shelters all the time?

Had Hamas used the billions in aid and tonnes of concrete to build bomb shelters on their side then maybe it would be a stalemate, but instead they chose to build tunnels into Israel with that concrete for the sole purpose of going in and kidnapping and killing Israeli citizens.

I just don't understand how you don't understand that Hamas are the ones putting the Palestinian children in danger and they are doing it on purpose.

At least rage in equal measures instead of being an apologiser for these evil bastards and only demonising the other side.