Life in Occupied Palestine

James_Clarke said:
hamas%2Bqaeda.png



But there is a big difference between Hamas and ISIS, because it would be difficult to find anyone who wants to be taken seriously defending ISIS,
whereas quite a few activists who pretend to care about human rights are eager to defend Hamas’ display of brutality against the citizens they rule.
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I note how after being shown you are wrong about Gaza being occupied, you then proceed to change the topic. Not only that, but you proceed to quote the exact same blog - despite them and you being wrong about the last thing you copied from there. That's uncritical thinking at it's finest. Do you always just repeat talking points given you by the government?

My question to you: What kind of armed resistance against the Israeli occupation of West Bank and Gaza WOULD you approve of the Palestinians engaging in?

Honestly answer that. What kind of resistance to Israeli occupation would you approve of?
 


As an Israeli resident reading this thread and all this discussion about the "Israeli occupation of the Gaza strip" I'm curious as to what your answers would be to this question:

Let's say theoretically that ALL of the restrictions on the Gaza strip were to be lifted. Let them build an independent port, have an unrestricted airport, open all the land borders etc. In all seriousness, what do you really think would happen with the fundamentalist Hamas in power?

Before I say anything else, I would like to add that I, like more than half the population here am actually very much against the settlers, which we consider to be radical right-wing fanatics here. Unfortunately, they have enough sway and are crazy enough to endanger themselves and others for their ideology.

I don't really think their is much debate on whether there is a siege on Gaza or not. There is.
However, as someone who has been following and living this conflict for 23 years, (I moved here when I was 11), and as someone who honestly wishes we could co-exist with the Palestinian people, I do not see any practical way in which Israel could currently lift the "siege" on Gaza.
If Israel was to lift the siege, the Hamas would have a field day arming up with more sophisticated and destructive weaponry which no doubt would be used against the Israeli population. The Hamas does not wish to co-exist with Israel, and has plainly stated many times that their current goal is to eradicate Israel and turn the entire land into an Islamic state (for starters). So, if the siege was to end, they would have a full freedom to gain arms in order to launch a full, real assault on Israel.

The "siege" was much more lenient before the Hamas took control over the Gaza strip. Also, before the walls were put in place, suicide bombings and other attacks on civilians were unfortunately a part of everyday life in Israel. I can say this first hand as I have lost more friends to these attacks than anyone should in their lives, including an ex-girlfriend not long after we broke up.

This post probably won't matter to those of you who are looking at the situation from the sidelines and already have your opinions of how Israel should be nicer to its neighbors and is a horrendous group of animals, but I felt I needed to put in my 2 cents anyway. Israel really can't compete with the Palestinian propaganda anyway.
 
xha44a said:
My question to you: What kind of armed resistance against the Israeli occupation of West Bank and Gaza WOULD you approve of the Palestinians engaging in?

Honestly answer that. What kind of resistance to Israeli occupation would you approve of?
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I approve diplomatic resistance.

The kind of resistance that is going on in the West Bank the last couple of years.
The Palestinian government there is cooperating with Israel on security matters and at the same time resisting on the International level without terror and violence.

[...] when hundreds of demonstrators gathered in the large West Bank city of Hebron to vent their anger at Israel’s mounting aggression against Hamas-controlled Gaza.

Responding to a call by Hamas, the protesters gathered outside the al-Haras mosque after evening prayers to march with placards through the city centre. But their path was blocked by ranks of Palestinian security forces.

A PA official, who wished to remain anonymous because of the “extreme sensitivity” of the issue, said security coordination offered benefits. “We understand it’s not popular but it is a mechanism by which we can try to resolve security matters in ways that avoid a confrontation with Israel that could endanger our people.”

Abbas in firing line over security cooperation with Israel
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This is a 180-degree opposite of the Hamas resistance in Gaza.


Mahmoud Abbas - Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) since 2004 and President of the State of Palestine since 2005.

Abbas to ask UN to set timetable for Palestinian state along 1967 lines
Abbas planning to announce a major diplomatic initiative this week, which sources in Ramallah say will entail asking the world powers and UN to take responsibility for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


Shimon Peres: Gaza must be returned to Mahmoud Abbas
Abbas is the only one with legitimate authority, says recently retired Israeli president
 
James_Clarke said:
I approve diplomatic resistance.

The kind of resistance that is going on in the West Bank the last couple of years.
The Palestinian government there is cooperating with Israel on security matters and at the same time resisting on the International level without terror and violence.
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So here we get to the heart of your position.

  1. Israel is allowed to forcibly occupy, bomb, kill and destroy the Palestinians - because that's "defense".
  2. Palestinians are not allowed to forcibly resist the occupation, bombing or destruction of their country and families, because that's terrorism.

That's pretty much your position here summed up in two points. The Israeli's can bomb, kill, destroy, settle Palestinian land and property - and forcibly. However you would only permit the Palestinians "diplomatic" resistance.

If I flipped that around - If Israel was occupied and Israeli's getting bombed, killed, evicted off their land (which was then settled by the occupying power's people) - if the tables were turned, would you stand by this and say all Israeli's are allowed is "diplomatic" resistance?

Cheers

XH

P.S. For what it's worth I don't like Hamas. They are a brutal Islamofascist style of group - however to compare them to ISIS is stupid.
 
xha44a said:
So here we get to the heart of your position.
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Your position is

1. Palestinians are allowed to forcibly bomb, kill and destroy the Israelis - because that's a legitimate response to their defeat in the six day war in 1967.
2. Israel not allowed to defend itself from bombing or destruction of their country and families, because some people don't like Israel defending itself.

What did the Palestinians achieve in 30 years of terror? Nothing.

Their latest and only achievements are coming from their diplomatic game.
General Assembly Votes Overwhelmingly to Accord Palestine
 
wooja said:
However, as someone who has been following and living this conflict for 23 years, (I moved here when I was 11), and as someone who honestly wishes we could co-exist with the Palestinian people, I do not see any practical way in which Israel could currently lift the "siege" on Gaza.
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Instead of conducting one of the largest occupations on the globe, and forcing millions of civilians into absolute dire circumstances, conduct one of the largest humanitarian aid missions in history. Instead of spending tons of money on military, missiles, and bombing the hell out of the Palestinian people, use that money for food, water, medical, build some proper water & sewer lines, power grids, and so on.

Give it 5 years, and 80%+ chance Hamas would be out of power via elections. It's either that, or continue committing genocide until every Palestinian is dead, which is obviously the route the Israeli govt has chosen.

You know, it's stupid right now. Israel bombs the fuck out of Palestinian, treats the residents like dogs, etc. Then has the gall to say, "if you only rejected Hamas, this wouldn't happen". How can you possibly expect the Palestinian people to reject Hamas, when they're basically the only group fighting on their behalf?
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
Instead of conducting one of the largest occupations on the globe, and forcing millions of civilians into absolute dire circumstances, conduct one of the largest humanitarian aid missions in history. Instead of spending tons of money on military, missiles, and bombing the hell out of the Palestinian people, use that money for food, water, medical, build some proper water & sewer lines, power grids, and so on.

Give it 5 years, and 80%+ chance Hamas would be out of power via elections. It's either that, or continue committing genocide until every Palestinian is dead, which is obviously the route the Israeli govt has chosen.

You know, it's stupid right now. Israel bombs the fuck out of Palestinian, treats the residents like dogs, etc. Then has the gall to say, "if you only rejected Hamas, this wouldn't happen". How can you possibly expect the Palestinian people to reject Hamas, when they're basically the only group fighting on their behalf?
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What the fuck do you think ? 2014 is the first year of this confilct ?
in 1993 - Oslo agreements, all of the above happened, sewer/electricity, fuck it, we even gave the plo police weapons to try and keep the order in their cities.
And how do the Palestinians rewarded us, with suicide bombers in the heart of our cities.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
or continue committing genocide until every Palestinian is dead, which is obviously the route the Israeli govt has chosen.
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Is it? Over 100,000 more a year would have to die just to keep up with births. Palestinian population has doubled over the last 20 years.

Demographics of the Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Andrew Scherer said:
Peace in the middle east starts with this thread. Brothers, if we can do it here surely we can do it in real life. Now let's all pull our dicks out and touch the tips.
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Schwartz.gif
 
Here's an interesting video of ultra-Zionist racists protesting an Arab-Jew wedding.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v47lNHJAYP4]Ultra-Zionists Protest Miscegenation - YouTube[/ame]
 
BDS Victory Over SodaStream Equals 900 Palestinians Out of Work

One of the biggest news stories that accompanied the start of 2014 was Scarlett Johansson being named as the global ambassador of SodaStream, an Israeli company based out of the West Bank settlement of Ma'ale Adumim, which develops home carbonation systems that allow users to convert tap water into sparkling water, in more than 100 flavors.

Fresh off of signing the contract with SodaStream, Johansson found herself quickly under fire for supporting a company in "occupied" Palestinian Territories, with New York Magazine referring to the company as "blood bubbles."
Reza Aslan, a well-known writer and academic, later called Johansson a Nazi supporter for working with SodaStream.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxq4ziu-wrI[/ame]


"Those who seek to help the Palestinians end up hurting us," said Nabil Bashrat, 40, a resident of Ramallah who worked at the factory.

"(The factory) provides income to hundreds of families, entire villages. Peace is what happens here inside, and not outside.
Those who are abroad don't understand the relations and actually sabotage the process.
The factory draws us closer. Even in times of instability, as was during the war in Gaza, everything was as usual here."

Unfortunately for Bashrat, however, and the other 900 Palestinian SodaStream employees, it seems the BDS supporters are more concerned with boycotting Israeli businesses who 'occupy' Palestinian settlements than helping the actual Palestinian people themselves.

Now, it seems the supporters finally have their wish: SodaStream has announced, in a reported non-political move, that they are moving the factory from the West Bank to a land that indisputably belongs to Israel (unless you're a member of Hamas or ISIS), near the town of Lahavim in the Negev.

This means that the Israeli company will no longer be "occupying" in the West Bank. Good job, BDS supporters.

Oh, it also means that 900 Palestinians - the people you claim you're trying to protect here - are now out of a job.

The company will make the move sometime in 2015. While it will still practice its equal opportunity hiring practices, it seems more likely that the region's Bedouin and African communities will be reeking the benefits of employment as opposed to the Palestinians.

Great job BDS supporters. Way to help out those Palestinians you know and understand so much.

BDS Victory Over SodaStream Equals 900 Palestinians Out of Work - Shalom Life
 
This is worth watching if you want to understands Israel's own thought on their position and why they feel they need to do what they do.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crIKfuUX5PE[/ame]

Please don't comment on it without watching it, it would just show total ignorance. Even Sun Tzu said you should know you enemy if you ever want a stand a chance of success.
 
nickster said:
This is worth watching if you want to understands Israel's own thought on their position and why they feel they need to do what they do.

‫

Please don't comment on it without watching it, it would just show total ignorance. Even Sun Tzu said you should know you enemy if you ever want a stand a chance of success.
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I've seen this mentality before from other Israelis, posters here, and in this video. The idea that Israel is on the defensive, seemingly on the brink of annihilation - protecting itself.

I beg to differ.

Israel has the most powerful military in the region. It has (depending on ranking used) the 11th most powerful military in the world. It is fanatically backed by the most powerful country in the world. It is the only armed nuclear power in the region. It is by far the most wealthy country out of its neighbours.

Add to that, it has been occupying territory to which it has no title for decades. Occupied for decades and nobody there can (or will) do anything about it.

I'm sorry - despite what the video and other posters here say, there is no way you can consider it on the defensive, "defending itself", trying to survive or any other such terms.

It is the occupying power in this conflict.

Let's add to that the fact that on top of occupying foreign territory, it ACTIVELY seizes land from the indigenous population there, for the purpose of creating illegal settlements.

This video brought up a good point... the guy talked about how his father was in his house when German soldiers came to forcibly take the family out of there.

Please tell me - are Palestinian soldiers forcibly taking Israeli families out of their homes in this conflict, or do Israeli soldiers forcibly evict Palestinian families from their homes? Yet this irony is completely missed. I do not compare Israel to Nazi Germany - there is no comparison. Yet how can Israel pretend to retain the moral high ground in this conflict when Israel is engaging in some of the actions the speaker condemns?

The blindness of many Israeli's to see the brutal policies enacted by their government in their name for what it is - brutal occupation - is something I wonder about.

Also some of this video is plain ridiculous - that Israel is the only country that warns of attacks, that sends food to their enemies etc. Let's review these claims...

1) Israel is so moral it warns of attacks ahead of time to prevent civilian casualties. This isn't something Israel does because it's moral - it is a basic legal requirement under Israel's treaty obligations - see here. Other countries that require this of their militaries include Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Benin , Cameroon, Canada, Croatia, Ecuador, France, Germany, Italy, Kenya, Madagascar, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nigeria, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Togo, United Kingdom, United States and Yugoslavia. Of course that is omitted by this video. Only Israel is that moral obviously.

2) Israel sends food and supplies to it's enemies - again there is a intentional failure to mention that this is a BASIC legal requirement for Israel with regards to it's treaty obligations. Here's the text from the Geneva conventions...

Art. 55. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population; it should, in particular, bring in the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate.
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So far from Israel showing it's amazing morality, the examples cited are BASIC legal requirements for Israel as the occupying power to comply with the laws of war and IHL. I also noted that the speaker made a point of omitting Israeli violations of the laws of war... the most egregious and obvious being:

Settlements in occupied territory - articles 27 & 49 of the 4th Geneva convention prohibit this. According to the Geneva Conventions Additional Protocol I, Article 85(4)(a) - settling occupied territory constitutes a war crime. Precedent was set for this in 1946 in Case of the Major War Criminals in 1946, where two German officers were convicted of attempting the "Germanization" of occupied territories. Yet this is behavior Israel openly engages in.

It really amazes me that someone can speak those words and completely miss the irony that many of his words (I speak this of the guy in the video - not you :-)

I do not support Hamas. They have their own crimes to answer for. Indiscriminate bombardment of Israeli civilian centers, targeting civilians, not carrying arms openly, not identifying themselves openly - and the list goes on.

However pretending that Israel somehow holds the high ground and is defending itself from these barbarians ignores the reality on the ground. You can't prove Israel government actions are moral by proving Hamas actions are immoral.
 
And now I'm going to turn the microphone over to James_Clarke to post some more articles from 1934 to show the ongoing settlment and occupation of Palestinian territory is moral and just.
 
Poll: 89% of Gazans support rocket fire on Israel link

62% support suicide bombings against civilian targets in defense of Islam link

46% think honor killings are never permissable link

89% think homosexulity is immoral link
 
xha44a said:
I've seen this mentality before from other Israelis, posters here, and in this video. The idea that Israel is on the defensive, seemingly on the brink of annihilation - protecting itself.

Please tell me - are Palestinian soldiers forcibly taking Israeli families out of their homes in this conflict, or do Israeli soldiers forcibly evict Palestinian families from their homes?



So far from Israel showing it's amazing morality, the examples cited are BASIC legal requirements for Israel as the occupying power to comply with the laws of war and IHL. I also noted that the speaker made a point of omitting Israeli violations of the laws of war... the most egregious and obvious being:

Settlements in occupied territory - articles 27 & 49 of the 4th Geneva convention prohibit this. According to the Geneva Conventions Additional Protocol I, Article 85(4)(a) - settling occupied territory constitutes a war crime. Precedent was set for this in 1946 in Case of the Major War Criminals in 1946, where two German officers were convicted of attempting the "Germanization" of occupied territories. Yet this is behavior Israel openly engages in.
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A few real answers
- About isreal defending itself -- i don't know how u call 5000 rockets flying into our cities, if reacting to that is not self defense i don't know what is.
I would agree with you if Hamas had a decent requirement, though, their main requirement is to annihilate the Israel state, so self defense here.

- About Evictions, the only time in the history that the IDF soldiers evicted someone from their houses, it was Israels living in Gaza, that happened in 05.
During this conflict Israel asked from gazans to clear any place they know have Hamas activity, you know whats the sad part, Hamas didn't let them go.

- Legal requirements - Those treaties, was formed to handle a situation where two countries fight each other, not a terror org' vs country.
So, we really don't have to be aligned with all of that, but you know how are the Jews, we like our ass covered.

- The last and the most interesting topic, settling occupied territorie, you are correct, according to int law, you're not allowed to place Ur people in an occupied territory(samaria and judah).
The thing is, that all of those territories, are not occupied according to int law, ill explain:
Jordan seized this territory in 1950, in 1967, six days war, Jordan attacked Israel and Israel took all Samaria and Judah back, now since it was "taken" from Jordan, after the war it was supposed to get back to Jordan, and guess what again, Jordan didn't want it, so according to allll Int law, we have every right for that shitty part of land.
 
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