Healthcare - Spiraling out of control

Let's not get mixed up with this whole republicans vs. democrats crap. It's a facade. Guarantee you if democrats were in office when 9/11 hit, we'd be in the same exact situation we're in now. Military will do what military wants.

Well of course its not as simple as white and black, but I'm sure everyone would agree that most republicans have that thought process even if they won't admit it. Just look at fox news. Just from watching it you get a "white is right, america fuck yeah, fuck people on welfare, fuck the poor, fuck minorities" attitude. They would rather run this country into the ground and then go "a ha! You should of voted republican!" I don't even get into politics and I ain't apart of either party, but what the republicans are doing is so childish its sad.
 


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

This is from 1787. The 16th amendment allowing federal income taxes wasn't until after 1900.

The existence of roads goes back thousands of years BC. Most people aren't aware of the origin of the word "turnpike." Individuals or private companies would create and maintain a road and then place a large wooden pole (a pike) across as a gate. They would then turn the pike after people payed the toll.

They had to charge something somewhat reasonable and not "millions" or else people would seek another route or get the idea to build their own road nearby. Pissing people off with outrageous fees would also have made some more likely to use violence. Even if only a small percent of the public would have resorted to that, it wasn't something the tollkeeper wanted to have to worry about.
 
hey i just wanted to throw in my 2 cents that if you eat right and take the right supplements you'll probably never have to deal with the 'healthcare system' anyway. so instead of arguing on a forum it would probably be more productive to do some research on lowering oxidative stress and inflammation. and i'm with guerilla -- make as much money as you can so just in case, you're covered. i'm planning on living till i'm at least 250 and possibly becoming a cyborg. just sayin'.


*edit: and don't forget exercise too bro's
 
I live in a private community and we pay for our roads. I see no reason why every neighborhood couldn't do the same. Highways I do think need to be funded by fee's although they should be funded by registration fee's and car sales tax(they are partially). That way if you drive a car you don't pay for the road.
You also use the Internet, which began as a US defense project paid for by taxes. Your GPS uses satellites originally launched as part of the US defense system, paid for by taxes. The water you drink, the food you eat and the air you breathe isn't killing you because of standards put in place and maintained, paid for by taxes. The business you run is protected under US and international laws, paid for by taxes. If your house catches fire the fire will be put out for you, paid for by taxes.
 
I think there have been some posts here on WF of counter examples to almost everything you listed. The house fire for sure - some places you pay an annual fee if you want the fire department to respond versus forced to pay via taxes. Toll roads are the rage where I used to live - privately funded and you pay as you use them, not taxes you are forced to pay whether you use them or not. The air and water thing is funny on several levels, and the business protection even more so.
 
You also use the Internet, which began as a US defense project paid for by taxes. Your GPS uses satellites originally launched as part of the US defense system, paid for by taxes. The water you drink, the food you eat and the air you breathe isn't killing you because of standards put in place and maintained, paid for by taxes. The business you run is protected under US and international laws, paid for by taxes. If your house catches fire the fire will be put out for you, paid for by taxes.
So if someone steals my lawnmower, but mows my lawn once a week, everything is hunky dory?

Who do you think pay taxes? If we're paying, shouldn't we have a right to choose who we pay, how much, and why?
 
So if someone steals my lawnmower, but mows my lawn once a week, everything is hunky dory?

Who do you think pay taxes? If we're paying, shouldn't we have a right to choose who we pay, how much, and why?

If your lawnmower gets stolen and you call the cops, imagine if the cops sent you a bill for the visit and for the investigation. You take it for granted now the cops will deal with your problem without billing you.

Another example: Let's say you ate a restaurant this weekend that got an "A" rating from the Dept. of Health. Would you like the bureaucracy to send you a bill for the vetting of the restaurant's cleanliness?

Think a little outside of box for a moment, and consider the many services we use that are very much in the background. There's a multitude of them, and civilized life would collapse without them.

Believe it or not, collecting taxes for the services we use is a far more efficient and economical way of managing the cost of services.

If we were to be billed a la carte for these services, the bureaucracy and expense to administer them would be crushing. When you pay your tax bill the money gets distributed to all those quiet, but very important departments of whatever that keep life clean, safe and liveable. Taxes are the price we pay for living in a civilized country.
 
If your lawnmower gets stolen and you call the cops, imagine if the cops sent you a bill for the visit and for the investigation. You take it for granted now the cops will deal with your problem without billing you.

That'd be nice, but I'd actually prefer to hire a security firm that was accountable, and didn't abuse the people they claim to protect.

Another example: Let's say you ate a restaurant this weekend that got an "A" rating from the Dept. of Health. Would you like the bureaucracy to send you a bill for the vetting of the restaurant's cleanliness?

I'd prefer no bureaucracy, but then again, I'd also like a nice tall glass of raw milk. Oh wait, the government and the big factory farms decided it wasn't healthy for me.

Think a little outside of box for a moment, and consider the many services we use that are very much in the background. There's a multitude of them, and civilized life would collapse without them.

Perhaps you should think outside the box, and see how nearly every government "service" could easily be supplied by a truly free market. A look back through history will show that many of the services now provided by government were once provided by private industry, and at much greater efficiency (defense is the only one I've yet to figure out). Moxie left a pretty good example a few posts back.

Believe it or not, collecting taxes for the services we use is a far more efficient and economical way of managing the cost of services.

False.

If we were to be billed a la carte for these services, the bureaucracy and expense to administer them would be crushing. When you pay your tax bill the money gets distributed to all those quiet, but very important departments of whatever that keep life clean, safe and liveable. Taxes are the price we pay for living in a civilized country.

And before it pays those artificially inflated costs, my hard-earned money is quietly distributed to worthless bureaucrats, and lost in the system.
 
That'd be nice, but I'd actually prefer to hire a security firm that was accountable, and didn't abuse the people they claim to protect.



I'd prefer no bureaucracy, but then again, I'd also like a nice tall glass of raw milk. Oh wait, the government and the big factory farms decided it wasn't healthy for me.



Perhaps you should think outside the box, and see how nearly every government "service" could easily be supplied by a truly free market. A look back through history will show that many of the services now provided by government were once provided by private industry, and at much greater efficiency (defense is the only one I've yet to figure out). Moxie left a pretty good example a few posts back.



False.



And before it pays those artificially inflated costs, my hard-earned money is quietly distributed to worthless bureaucrats, and lost in the system.

^^All that would accomplish is to complicate everyone's life. Now you just pay your tax bill and things get done, more or less.

Another thought: If the government sent an itemized bill for all the services you used, think of all the bureaucrats they'd need to deal with the record keeping and the collection services to chase you if you don't pay. Hundreds of thousands of new government workers would be needed just to administer this.

Of course, since the bureaucracy is billing you and chasing you, this would entail an additional charge.

I don't like paying taxes any more than anyone else. Government should be more efficient, I agree. We could argue ways to improve the way taxes are used, and services delivered, without this a la carte nonsense.
 
^^All that would accomplish is to complicate everyone's life. Now you just pay your tax bill and things get done, more or less.

Another thought: If the government sent an itemized bill for all the services you used, think of all the bureaucrats they'd need to deal with the record keeping and the collection services to chase you if you don't pay. Hundreds of thousands of new government workers would be needed just to administer this.

Of course, since the bureaucracy is billing you and chasing you, this would entail an additional charge.

I don't like paying taxes any more than anyone else. Government should be more efficient, I agree. We could argue ways to improve the way taxes are used, and services delivered, without this a la carte nonsense.

I'm not advocating a la carte government services in any way, shape, or form. The point I'm making is that only a free market can provide efficient services without impeding my freedom to choose. The governments involvement involvement naturally makes things more difficult and inefficient.

Of course they could be more efficient, but they will never be truly efficient. A quick look at the deficit will show you that. If they somehow did get their house in order, we'd have to be taxed into oblivion, and in turn, our freedom of choice would be eroded even further.

Again, I encourage you to look back at services once provided by the market.
 
I'm not advocating a la carte government services in any way, shape, or form. The point I'm making is that only a free market can provide efficient services without impeding my freedom to choose. The governments involvement involvement naturally makes things more difficult and inefficient.

Of course they could be more efficient, but they will never be truly efficient. A quick look at the deficit will show you that. If they somehow did get their house in order, we'd have to be taxed into oblivion, and in turn, our freedom of choice would be eroded even further.

Again, I encourage you to look back at services once provided by the market.

Are you Australian? just guessing based on your avatar which is from an Australian tv show. Would you not agree that our privatised rail network is an inefficient, consistently delayed, consistently cancelled, poorly run pile of shit?

What about services in a free market where there is no competition, like said rail network. Is a competitor in your magical free market going to invest billions to build tracks and platforms across the state right next to the other one? Which is completely impossible given they won't be able to acquire the long stretches of land across the state, since it's all privately owned.

So where's the incentive for the existing private rail network to improve their service? there's no competition, they can charge whatever they want. There would be no ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) to ensure they aren't taking advantage of their monopoly on the market.

For example...
"TRAIN operator Metro posted a $20 million profit in its first seven months of operation, despite failing every month to meet punctuality targets set by the Brumby government."

They're liable for fines of $1 million a month for not meeting punctuality targets. Without those fines do you think they'd be more or less punctual?
 
Are you Australian? just guessing based on your avatar which is from an Australian tv show. Would you not agree that our privatised rail network is an inefficient, consistently delayed, consistently cancelled, poorly run pile of shit?

What about services in a free market where there is no competition, like said rail network. Is a competitor in your magical free market going to invest billions to build tracks and platforms across the state right next to the other one? Which is completely impossible given they won't be able to acquire the long stretches of land across the state, since it's all privately owned.

So where's the incentive for the existing private rail network to improve their service? there's no competition, they can charge whatever they want. There would be no ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) to ensure they aren't taking advantage of their monopoly on the market.

For example...
"TRAIN operator Metro posted a $20 million profit in its first seven months of operation, despite failing every month to meet punctuality targets set by the Brumby government."

They're liable for fines of $1 million a month for not meeting punctuality targets. Without those fines do you think they'd be more or less punctual?
Nope, not Australian, just a huge fan of Chris Lilley shows (everyone should check out Summer Heights High btw).

As for your metro questions, I'd like to respond, but I'm having a hard time looking up information about the corporation that runs the railway you speak of. It seems there are a few metro/train networks.

If you could give me the name or a link to a wiki entry or something, I'd be happy to respond to your questions.
 
Who do you think pay taxes? If we're paying, shouldn't we have a right to choose who we pay, how much, and why?


no you shouldn't. short answer, majority of people are dumb and it wouldn't be allocated efficiently.

not saying the government does a good job but individuals would do worse.
 
this a la carte nonsense.

Most services are still private. Does the world really become any better if the government raises taxes more and then uses that money to cover for anyone who needs plumbing repairs? Instead of just calling the plumber like now, people would probably first have to fill out an application and then wait for the government inspector to come out and approve of the repair.

there's no competition, they can charge whatever they want.

They can charge whatever they want, but it's in their interests not to charge so high as to drive away customers to the point where they end up making less profit.
 
Nope, not Australian, just a huge fan of Chris Lilley shows (everyone should check out Summer Heights High btw).

If you could give me the name or a link to a wiki entry or something, I'd be happy to respond to your questions.

Metro Trains Melbourne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I actually met Chris Lilley, he frequents my friends newsagency, good to know he's heard of outside Australia.

Instead of just calling the plumber like now, people would probably first have to fill out an application and then wait for the government inspector to come out and approve of the repair.

Let's imagine for a moment that firefighters and police were all privately run. If someone suggested that the government should run these services, you would probably say the same thing. "If my house is burning down I'd have to fill out an application and then wait for a government fire inspector to come out and approve the dispatch of a fire truck!".
 
Ok, so after doing some reading, I think I may have an explanation for the shitty service provided by Metro.

The land the tracks are built on are subleased to MTR Corporation (owner of Metro Trains Melbourne) by none other than the Victoria Department of Transport, who is leased the land from the state established corporation, VicTrack. The Director of Public Transport, who heads up the DOT, is also responsible for the development of infrastructure. So it doesn't appear to be a failure of the market, but rather a state imposed monopoly. Much like US health care, Victorian transportation is far from operating in the free market that you condemn.

EDIT: I'd love to meet Lilley. He's a true comedic genius. He's not very well known here, but Summer Heights High made it onto HBO here a couple years ago. Many of my close friends are also big fans, and I think he's slowly catching on.
 
No shit, you were in Gettysburg? I am from there, so it is always weird to here people visiting family since it is such a tiny town.

But you are right. Gburg, or Adams County, just raised their property taxes at least 100% across the board and even those who appealed got very little relief from that. And don't even get me started on the ER and hospital there. Would never go there again.

The taxes we pay here are crazy, and it is like that in so many areas like this. I wouldn't mind as much, either, if I would actually see those dollars going to economic development in the area. Just my 2 cents on the area.

Yeah I did notice that Gettysburg is very small so I am sure most of the locals know each other fairly well. I imagine it's a tourist town though, no? I'm sure there are always a bunch of new faces around town. I loved my stay there. It's family from my wife's side, and she hasn't been there in quite some time. The rest of her family go every year. It was a bit of a whirlwin trip for us, as we were there for a wedding so we didn't have a chance to visit many of the War Memorials. Major Disappointment that the Puma Outlet at The Outlet Shops was closed.

It's actually at The Outlet Shops where our discussions kind of started to take off, as many of the stores had a "Pennsylvania is a tax Free State' or something to that effect, on their windows, and indeed, buying a pair of jeans that were $14.00 with a $10 and a $5 got me a penny back in change! No wonder the property taxes are high, as everything else is tax free. If they don't get you on one end, they get you on the other.
 
Busy week but don't worry, i'm back (for now).

Just a couple of food for thought questions regarding anarcho-capitalism (I swear that's an oximoron?).

1) If you had no government, what would our currency be? Gold? Chickens? Water bottles? There arn't enough to go around for even a basic trading system.

2) This is complete opinion so throw your citations at me after but surely a heirarchy is a natural human instinct? We have always had tribe chieftains, war leaders, politicians or someone.

3) Would you agree that anarcho-capitalism is in direct opposition to the Nash equilibrium?
 
Busy week but don't worry, i'm back (for now).

Just a couple of food for thought questions regarding anarcho-capitalism (I swear that's an oximoron?).

1) If you had no government, what would our currency be? Gold? Chickens? Water bottles? There arn't enough to go around for even a basic trading system.

2) This is complete opinion so throw your citations at me after but surely a heirarchy is a natural human instinct? We have always had tribe chieftains, war leaders, politicians or someone.

3) Would you agree that anarcho-capitalism is in direct opposition to the Nash equilibrium?
I'll try to address points 1 and 2, hopefully guerrilla, or someone else, will chime in with a more thorough answer. I'll give #3 a shot, but I haven't really taken the time to fully understand the Nash Equilibrium - my apologies.

Anarcho-capitalism is far from an oxymoron. Capitalism is a market system with no interference from the state. Anarchy is the lack of a state/government. So really, they go hand in hand.

1) The currency would be whatever people are willing to accept in exchange for their goods and services. It wouldn't be a fiat currency, like we have now, because nobody would want useless, green paper.

2) I can't attest to whether or not a social hierarchy is human nature, but of course, not everyone wants to be a factory owner, for example. Most people will simply choose to "lease" space in the factory, and collect a smaller percentage of the full value of their production, in exchange for access to the means of production (tools, machinery, whatever) from the factory owner. This is a win-win trade. Workers get paid, and the factory owner collects a profit for putting his money on the line and assuming all risks. No body is exploited because it's immoral to use force against another to get what you want. Everything is purely consensual, and everyone gets what they want.

This is all simple stuff that I'm sure you understand.

However, things get tricky when the government steps in. No longer are people free to spend or save their money how they choose due to taxation. Instead, a large percentage of their money goes to causes that the majority, or more likely a select group political elite, believes should be supported. If you don't agree, you can expect to have your freedom and property stripped from you through force and violence.

You, of course, have to account for people with the desire to exploit others for their own benefit. These exploiters are drawn to positions of power, aka political positions, to further increase their ability to exploit.

OK OK, I'll finally get to the point.

I wouldn't say hierarchies (governments) are desired by humans as a whole, but rather, are desired by the corrupt so they can exploit the masses for their own benefit.

The desire for concentrated power, and the taking through violence that is spawned from it, is an incredibly primitive way to look at the world. I think many more people would agree if the corrupt weren't doing everything in their power to convince the masses that violence is the answer by veiling it under the guise of freedom and social justice.

3) In an anarcho-capitalist society, the only "rules of the game" are that nobody can infringe upon or take through force one's right to life, liberty, and property.

In today's society, the opposite is true because the rules apply to some, and not to others.

Again, I hope someone more intelligent than I can weigh in.