This is a good discussion. Here are my thoughts.
I don't put children equal with adults.
No, they're obviously not equal in cognitive ability, experience, knowledge, etc. and yes, they're dependent. But I wasn't referring to that, I was referring to the fact that they're human beings as well, at their most vulnerable stage in life, who will eventually become adults.
"I can do this to you, because you're a child! And you must obey me because I'm your parent!" sounds awfully a lot like the hierarchical authority that we see in the state, and religion. "Don't disobey our 50,000 laws, or else!", "Don't disobey thy god, or else!" That type of methodology that's taught to children breeds them into acceptance of the state and religion, unfortunately.
In many ways children share attributes of animals. You can't reason with a child like you can't reason with a dog or a cat. They are going to do what they want to do, often times without reason behind the actions. You can't treat them on the level of a mature human being until they become one. Of course it would be great if you could tell the child that stealing is wrong and end it there. But children are like an animal acting on instinct (to various degrees). The fact that they have done something worthy of correction is already an argument in favor of them not being equal. Is it better to reason with your dog about staying in the yard or are you better off putting up a fence? Do you reason with your dog about staying close to you when you walk or do you get a leash? Is it bad to be the master and authority above your dog? That's the level of consciousness that they're at. You deal with people with the language and consciousness that they are able to grasp, not where you wish they were.
Great points, but how is any of the above justification for using pain as a way to correct behavior? Sometimes children are children, you can't place unrealistic expectations on them, because as you said, they're not capable of our level of understanding. So what do you do? Hit them because of it?
Slavery, for example, is not necessarily wrong. Most people in the world are slaves to their governments. Both parties are happy. The people love it and the masters love it. And until the majority of people reach a level of maturity to where they no longer need a government they will continue to appreciate their servitude. There is a time and place for all things. Governments wouldn't exist if we had mature people. Spanking wouldn't exist if we had mature children. But we don't, they're children.
I don't agree. Slavery was wrong when it was practiced, just ask the slaves if they thought it was wrong, I'm sure they'd say yes. The earth wasn't the center of the solar system just because people once thought it was. People only think government necessary because they've been propagandized into believing it's necessary, that doesn't mean government is right.
There are cases where violence can be a better teacher than non-violence. When a child touches a hot stove and the stove commits an act of "violence" on the child the child learns real quick not to touch the stove again. Do you think the child would have learned not to touch hot things if this hadn't happened? The smart ones capable of ascertaining the conclusion through reason and thought probably would have. But not all children are this smart. And the ones who aren't smart are going to learn the hard way unfortunately. Most people learn things the hard way, adults and children.
When a child touches a stove it's not because they're being bad, it's out of ignorance. No one would voluntarily burn themselves if they knew better. Now you're saying that's proof that some children should be spanked in order to stop them from doing things like putting their finger in a light socket, or running into traffic, I'm saying (a) get some fucking light switch covers (b) don't put such a young child in the position of running out into the road while simultaneously (c) consistently letting them know why we don't do those things.
Here's a scenario, let's say your 8 yr old daughter won't pick up after herself. After pleading with her a bunch of times, she won't pick up her socks and shit. Would you think it's OK to spank her so she'll start picking up her shit?
Then let's say being the dirty webmaster you are
, you don't pick up your shit stained tighty whities last night, or your left a deuce in the toilet, or you left some dishes out. Is it okay for your wife to get a belt and beat you? Obviously that's ridiculous, so I'm not sure why we think it's okay to do that to children, who are more vulnerable and dependent; it's even worse imo.
If people are going to spank, they need to be consistent with it at least and accept that same level of accountability. If they litter, they need to accept it if a stranger spanks/hits them for it. They need to accept violence as a means of correction whenever it is they do something wrong. Obviously no one who spanks is very receptive to that idea, so in the end we have hypocrisy.
