Dear PHP,
- Thread starter SeanW
- Start date
+1
Frameworks are the anti-thesis of programming. My scripts are down and dirty procedural and/or functional. Although I have to admit, I'm not even fond of keeping libraries. I rewrite the same code from scratch over and over again. This is a bad habit, and I definitely wouldn't argue that. The nature of programming was never meant to be "frameworked". I guess this is one of the times I could use semantics to directly support my point.
Frameworks on high-level languages are just pointless in my opinion. How much higher should the abstraction be diluted? After all, we're just trying to get a fixation of 0's and 1's. But, to each their own. I guess I'm not the only person that doesn't use frameworks, and that's relieving to know. It's quite scary how much people get on a bandwagon in the development community even if it purposely challenges traditional programming. All of these fads are overwhelming and they produce very poor programmers who do not deserve to call themselves programmers! :rasta:
aмillionaírе;850875 said:
I agree.
I don't use any frameworks but build my own functions and search back on them if I need to recreate a similar function or solution to a problem. I agree with uplinked that you should keep code indented and structured as it makes it WAY easier to locate anything (especially when you aren't coding in a framework which is already semi-structured).. hell I even comment simple codes I throw up because I may use it later but I guess I might just be ADD like that
To me there is not such thing as a "framework". If you allow some asshat to hand you wine and they call it beer, and you believe them, well I guess you'd think it's beer right?
Like I've said above, frameworks dictate the structure you code in. This meaning exactly how you code. I shouldn't have to explain how MVC makes you micro-manage your code, and this is why I say it's worthless to a traditional programmer.
Those for example, learn MVC for Ruby on Rails, will not be able to adapt to write code in Assembly c/c++.
Also like I said above, frameworks are only frameworks in the fact they try and instill a certain way to program, despite the fact they are huge libraries with MVC piled on top to make them more "different".
I'm defiantly not the only one that feels that way, because the truth be that if your an MVC programmer you're a pile of shit.
If you can't program you're just a poser, get over it.
I agree your code should be "formatted", however formatted code is not some special kind of code he keeps trying to say it is.
Challenge accepted. No need to see proof of hardon tho
Got a particular scraper in mind? What are the metrics for success?I think this is the point where your arguments go from "opinionated but still somewhat interesting if only for the comedic value" to "bearded man on the street yelling and waving a bible".
No one is arguing for the use of frameworks and MVC (two separate concepts, BTW) for every job. Anyone who did that would be a bad programmer, and an idiot.
The hard part about programming is solving the problem. The language doesn't matter.
Design patterns came out as a way to abstract some common problem solving techniques. MVC was one of them. MVC is quite clever in that it separates various responsibilities and promotes code reuse. It's great for web applications, not so great if you're writing on a pic16f628. But part of being a good programmer is knowing what is appropriate where, and being able to adapt.
Web frameworks are nothing more than a set of libraries. You don't go calling the GNOME team a bunch of pussies because "real programmers write using X11 primitives". I don't know about you, but at 33 I've spent enough time at a keyboard that I don't have to solve the same problem over and over each time when someone else has done the work for me. I get paid to solve business problems and generate revenue, not write hash algorithms and url routing code. And, quite frankly, I don't want to be stuck maintaining code I wrote a long time ago, nor do I want to piss off whoever maintains this code when I leave. Frameworks make the code predictable and easy to share.
Even within an MVC framework you don't have to follow the design pattern. CI doesn't use models by default. You can happily put your business logic in the controller or the view if you want in Rails. No one will stop you.
Rails is opinionated -- yes. If you do things the "rails way" it's incredibly easy and fast to get something up and running. It's fine to go outside of that though. The rails team are not seers, they can't forsee every possibility. All they do is make easy stuff easy.
Who gives a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut? You don't get points for writing an ultra fast scraper, and no one but you is going to jerk off over how good your code is. The goal is to solve a problem. If you write a scraper that's twice as fast as mine that's only worth the 8.5 cents an hour I need to run a second instance on EC2.
Sean
It's important to realize that using X Framework is 99.9% of the time pointless/bad practice/stupid.
If I get hired to write a web app from scratch I don't use CI or RoR because they are bloated, ugly, and not particularly inspired. I roll my own slim and to the point framework if I need to (shouldn't take more than 1 day, if that) and templating engine and then I just write code in my own controllers and using my own favorite db abstractions. There's also arguable complexity benefits if you know exactly where you should use a Builder, a Factory, a Singleton. Of course, you need some computer science background to understand when to use what and where.
Because my hypothetical framework isn't as generalized as something like CI means it runs faster and it's easier for Joe Blow to understand exactly what's going on if he picks up exactly where I left off. Frameworks aren't these hard-to-understand mountains of code in essence, but because RoR/CI/CakePHP try to be so vast in scope, they end up being fat and ugly.
And rage9 has a point. Frameworks do somewhat pigeonhole you in writing code a certain way. Scaffolding, etc just adds to the hilarity of why these huge frameworks are just dumb.
Your comparison between web programming and systems/OS programming is also kind of flimsy. I've written apps with wxWidgets for cross-platform distribution. But wxWidgets (or QT, or your GNOME example) are hardly comparable to RoR or CI. Not only that, but the GNOME developers are free to use their own chosen design patterns (which, if you use something like a web framework, have no control over).
RoR and CI aren't abstractions, they are full-blown frameworks for your average retard that take away the developer's choice of pattern design. Of course, a LOT of developers don't know the difference between X pattern or Y pattern, so it's obvious why these frameworks have become so popular. In essence, they became popular for the same reason PHP became popular: oh look ma, no data types, no pointers, hell, I can even be sloppy with my semicolons. It's ironic that the OP moved from PHP to RoR... it's like going from Dumb to Dumber.
Challenge accepted. No need to see proof of hardon tho
Lol, OK name the scraper. We need a definite outline of the data needed to be scraped. It also must be in the same language (I don't know python so good luck getting me to write a scraper in it).
So PHP or even Ruby (even though I just started to learn it). I will put down money that my procedural scraper destroys your OO scraper though.
Speed in my opinion is everything. You either write the best scraper you can in your chosen language or you don't.
It's that same attitude that causes people to use something like MVC which would end up being way slower than a traditional programming standard. It's the way it's always been. For some reason there is a large percentage of people whom just don't care about speed. Speed is important.
People try and argue that what I write may only be fractions of a second faster than what they write, but when it gets down to your server getting pounded every fraction counts IMHO.
I'm not saying that a scraper constitutes that, but if your scraping enough data I'd think you'd want your scraper running as fast as you can (within reason). If it's limited data who cares right?
I have an e-penis and want to debunk the myth that OO is so great, because often times so many jerk offs would use that vs procedural for no other reason than they think it's better. I'm here to break that stereotype. If I only win by fractions of a second I'll still be successful.
If Rage9 fails (which I doubt) then I will step in and prove his point!
:rasta:
OO is only for Google-size projects.
My raw procedural is faster than your fancy OO.
:rasta:
OO is only for Google-size projects.
My raw procedural is faster than your fancy OO.
I can appreciate that. For your requirements, maybe that's the case. But from where I sit:
- More traffic than I can handle is a good problem to have. I think the 37 signals guys put it best: If I'm putting 1,000 users on a server and they're paying me $20/mo, that's almost 1/4 million a year/server. I don't care about having to buy a server.
- My company values agility. Last week I banged up a simple site to try and prove a new business model. I got it working on Tuesday. Showed it to people on Wednesday. Improved it in response to feedback on Wednesday/Thursday. More feedback on Thursday/Friday.
- Since I'm using a well established framework I can use other people's modules. acts_as_locatable means I can do geo searches like "show me all the records that are within 20 miles of zip code 90210" in a couple of lines of code. ABingo means I can do A/B testing very quickly, again, in a couple of lines of code. Could I have written that all? Sure. But the point is I didn't have to.
- Since the views are separate from code, I was able to integrate the designer's work quickly. Then I shipped him my layout and view files and we could work on those directly.
- There's a built in testing framework. It was very easy for me to do some bounds testing and shake out bugs I didn't even know I had. Since my testing is repeatable, I avoid regressions.
Some of my other work involves scrapers. I used to write them in Perl. The last one I did in Ruby because of some awesome selectors. Now, instead of a couple of hours futzing with HTML::Builder, I've got it done and running in 20 minutes. The scraper might run for a couple of hours, and then it spends a weekend crunching inside R on a big box. Who cares how fast the scraper runs if the limiting factor is the crunching?
On the side I've written a payroll system in Rails that I'm trying to sell as an SaaS offering. Because I'm using a framework, I could do that in 10 hours a week. Most features get implemented in a week. Is it slower than other languages? Probably. But my slowest actions, including running a payroll, run in under half a second. And since I'm using Rails, I've got built in instrumentation so I know exactly where the slowness is.
Finally, the most important thing is -- Rails makes programming fun again.
Sean
rage9, I don't see why we need to write in the same language. I don't know ruby, and php = lol. You use what you want, I use what I want, the best code wins. I'm thinking something along the lines of yellowpages, which has lots of data to scrape. Maybe reads a text file, that has a category per line to scrape, goes through all pages of that category, dump results to a CSV. I'd say important things are the ability to recover from a page not loading, proxy support. I can scale to a couple hundred threads, so good luck beating me on speed with php
Latency will most likely be the speed limitation if you're single threaded.
Latency will most likely be the speed limitation if you're single threaded.
1,2,3 GO!rage9, I don't see why we need to write in the same language. I don't know ruby, and php = lol. You use what you want, I use what I want, the best code wins. I'm thinking something along the lines of yellowpages, which has lots of data to scrape. Maybe reads a text file, that has a category per line to scrape, goes through all pages of that category, dump results to a CSV. I'd say important things are the ability to recover from a page not loading, proxy support. I can scale to a couple hundred threads, so good luck beating me on speed with php
Latency will most likely be the speed limitation if you're single threaded.
if you wanna talk about epeens, e-penis, or just reg ol cock all day, go ahead.. however im not wasting my time on talking about cock or even better, electronic penis's.