Bought a new gun today...

Read this somewhere..
Always carry 2 guns. Nothing like a Gun jamming on you in a gun fight, and not have a backup gun. Carry a gun of the same calibre. And carry extra Magazines. What can be worse than running out of Ammos in a gunfight?

As I said before, a quality gun should jam less than once every 10,000 rounds. There's a really great group of guys out there who do reliability testing. The M&P , Sig, & HK USP from their testing are some of the most reliable. In their testing they went 35,000 , 15,000 and 10,000 without jamming respectively. Carrying a second gun isn't a great idea because then you have to train to fire from that position too. You should also be training with snap caps in your primary firearm to train in case of jams. A quality shooter can clear a jam in 1 to 2 seconds.


Thorough response schockergd. I agree with tactical advantages of shooting someone; so it's always a good idea to practice to ensure you know where the dam bullets are going. My first 10 rounds in all clips are these rounds:

AMM-4631 - Ammo 9mm Luger DRT 85 Grain Powdered Core Hollow Point 50 Round Box

It's suppose to be explosive; and shred upon impact. Now the most common round is usually fmj; I'm assuming that given people were shot, it would indeed create a hole and bleed someone out. But I usually like to get sp (soft point) that mushroom out (maximize impact energy) upon impact (creating more stopping power).


You need to do serious research into calibers and be careful of ammo claims.

Frangible ammo has been around since the 50s, yet no law enforcement agency , military or other group uses the ammo. The only group that regularly uses it currently is the US air marshal service.

Frangible ammo is often touted by various companies as the 'best' ammo possible, however you need to understand how firearms kill or incapacitate.

People are killed either from CNS disruption (Brain) or lack of oxygen to the brain (blood loss). The second is the less reliable killer as it's nearly impossible to tell when someone is about ready to lose consciousness during a gun fight.

Now , frangible ammo states that it is the better ammo to incapacitate because it causes a larger temporary cavity. The problem with this is the fact that temporary cavities don't kill people, permanent ones do. The hope with frangible ammo is that it will sever more arteries & blood vessels due to rapid and extreme expansion/fragmentation. The problem with this idea is that all of the major organs which carry the most blood (and have the most arteries) are more than 6" from the surface of the skin. In the case of your 85gr 9mm ammo , it will penetrate no more than 5" in a human body. Furthermore, 12" of penetration is what the FBI demands every single caliber meet before they will consider it for usage. This is because they found out that many criminals were surviving shots due to the position of their bodies during bullet impact. In many cases criminals attempt to fire from concealment or cover, thus meaning the chance of a bullet impact from the side is extremely high. In these cases it takes no less than 12" of bullet penetration to make impact with any major internal organs.

Cover and concealment is also a major factor when picking the right ammo. Your frangible ammo will not penetrate intermediate barriers. So , should someone break into your house, you will be unable to fire through the drywall to kill them, but as long as he is armed and not using the exact same ammo as you , he will be able to shoot through a wall and kill you.

Example : Last year there was a CCW incident in Dallas Texas involving a permit holder , a police officer and 2 criminals. The CCW holder was a jeweler and called the cops because there was a car parked behind his store selling drugs. He pointed the car out to the cop and waited in the front of his store for an arrest. When the dealers saw the cop, they took off attempting to run him over. The cop fired 6 times at the driver of the car, through the windshield in an attempt to kill him. Incidentally a 40s&w is extremely poor against windshield glass (as is 9mm) without very specific bullet types being used (bonded). The driver was not effected although he had actually been shot 4-5 times, the bullets either made it no less than 1" into his body, or literally bounced off him due to loss of energy. The jeweler heard the firing and came out only to see the car with the guys inside and 6 bullet holes in the windshield. Assuming the cop was shot or killed, he fired his 1911 two times at the driver , again through the windshield. Both round struck him center mass and caused rapid incapacitation. The driver unable to control the car crashed it into a telephone poll and was found dead. The 45acp penetrated the windshield glass while the 40s&w did not.

Barriers should ALWAYS be a concern for a person carrying a firearm. Here's another major example : http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

This is the autopsy of a man who had a shootout with police officers in PA. He was shot in excess of 17 times, practically every single handgun round did not penetrate more than a inch or two. He was eventually handcuffed by police officers and died en-route to the hospital.
 
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Now , frangible ammo states that it is the better ammo to incapacitate because it causes a larger temporary cavity. The problem with this is the fact that temporary cavities don't kill people, permanent ones do. The hope with frangible ammo is that it will sever more arteries & blood vessels due to rapid and extreme expansion/fragmentation. The problem with this idea is that all of the major organs which carry the most blood (and have the most arteries) are more than 6" from the surface of the skin. In the case of your 85gr 9mm ammo , it will penetrate no more than 5" in a human body.
I'm gonna say the obvious thing here... You can't take on someone who's been shot in hand to hand fighting?
 
*Long post warning*

Good post




Glocks are sort of in the same category as many other firearms. HK USPs, Sigs, FNPs , and many other models. If you don't like the trigger, just get a new one. There are dozens of spring/trigger linkage combinations that you can get. Granted a glock is a striker fired gun and will never have a identical pull to a single/double action firearm.
I'm aware that you can change out springs on these for different pull weights, but I'm not interested in having to mod a gun out of the box when there are others out there I've tried and prefer.
As to striker-fired DA guns, try the Kahr. My wife owns one, and they have one of the nicest DA triggers I've felt. Long pull, but very smooth.

+1 on the rec for putting a lot of rounds through to test reliability. I've put over 8,000 through my Sig which, of course, is the one in which I have absolute confidence. I received some good advice from someone who said to expect to spend at least as much in ammunition starting out as the cost of the gun. Of course, prices range widely, but it's good for someone starting out to think about since ammo costs stack up.
 
Years ago I had a Glock 22 (.40), and I could never get comfortable with it. I liked how simple it was and the operation, but for some reason I just wasn't accurate with it, so I sold it and got the Sig that I have now. I would consider getting a sub-compact Glock for CC, but there's no way California will ever allow CC, so that probably won't happen.
 
I'm gonna say the obvious thing here... You can't take on someone who's been shot in hand to hand fighting?

Why would you want to? The last thing you want to do with a dangerous person is get close to them. That's the whole point of shooting them.
 
Years ago I had a Glock 22 (.40), and I could never get comfortable with it. I liked how simple it was and the operation, but for some reason I just wasn't accurate with it, so I sold it and got the Sig that I have now. I would consider getting a sub-compact Glock for CC, but there's no way California will ever allow CC, so that probably won't happen.
I'm pretty sure CA does allow CC. The problem is it's not "shall issue", so discretion is left up to local law enforcement to approve or deny which is known as "may issue".

from http://www.handgunlaw.us/LicMaps/ccwmap.php
S6tPd.png


I remember reading how Diane Feinstein who is rabidly anti-gun supposedly has a permit of her own. Not sure if it's true, but it wouldn't be all that surprising.
 
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Since the thread's relevant to my interests... Just bought my first today, Walther PPQ (9mm).

I'll have pics after the Maryland mandatory 7 day wait period. He said it'll probably be 10 days. Sigh.

For those of you that know what the details are all about:

cat_page_ppq_tech_lg.jpg



And now back to your regularly scheduled Dresdenathon.

Well, fuck. This is exactly what's wrong with this country right now. They let people like Rob conceal weapons and shoot the place up.
 
Good post





I'm aware that you can change out springs on these for different pull weights, but I'm not interested in having to mod a gun out of the box when there are others out there I've tried and prefer.
As to striker-fired DA guns, try the Kahr. My wife owns one, and they have one of the nicest DA triggers I've felt. Long pull, but very smooth.

+1 on the rec for putting a lot of rounds through to test reliability. I've put over 8,000 through my Sig which, of course, is the one in which I have absolute confidence. I received some good advice from someone who said to expect to spend at least as much in ammunition starting out as the cost of the gun. Of course, prices range widely, but it's good for someone starting out to think about since ammo costs stack up.


Reloading can save a ton of money.

9mm is around $100/1000 with 40 being similar and 45 being less than $150/1000

If you're willing to put cast bullets through your gun (glocks can't use cast bullets) You're down to 2 or 3 cents per round or $100 for 3,000 rounds.




I'm pretty sure CA does allow CC. The problem is it's not "shall issue", so discretion is left up to local law enforcement to approve or deny which is known as "may issue".

from http://www.handgunlaw.us/LicMaps/ccwmap.php
S6tPd.png


I remember reading how Diane Feinstein who is rabidly anti-gun supposedly has a permit of her own. Not sure if it's true, but it wouldn't be all that surprising.


For every 1000 applications in CA , at most 10 are granted, 5 is much more likely. In most states it's around 990-995 out of 1,000 are approved. It is VERY county specific, from what I've heard, OC is quite good on getting people a permit.
 
good posts schock; ill take that stuff into consideration; obviously I know that sp or ammunition that breaks apart on impact wouldn't travel through walls -- this is what fmj is usually designed for (or stronger caliber). I just feel that sp or this impact ammo would create 'more stopping power' or putting the person down on impact. Maybe I should try and find some of those gellatin blocks and put 1-2 rounds in various blocks and run a case study, lol.

As for reloading; I do this as well. I only reload my 223's though. I don't cast my own bullets. I do feel accuracy and reliability is increased when making your own shit as opposed to some assembly line.
 
Reloading can save a ton of money.
It takes up a fair amount of time, though. I bought all the equipment several years ago, and reloaded quite a bit. Collecting your brass is a pain, especially on an indoor range. That's assuming they let you; many ranges make money from recycling spent brass. Then you have to clean it, deprime it, size it, then reload it. You have to be careful and awake so you don't accidentally double-charge a round. I have a Lee turret press which speeds some of this up, but it gets old.
Not to mention, three or four years ago primers were getting hard to find locally, and you need to pay a hazmat fee to get them shipped which eats into your savings.

If I did more long distance shooting with a rifle, I would probably be more into it since you're building the perfect load for accuracy for one specific rifle, and only loading a few rounds at a time. The time it takes to load enough pistol ammo for a trip to the range is quite a bit more.
 
good posts schock; ill take that stuff into consideration; obviously I know that sp or ammunition that breaks apart on impact wouldn't travel through walls -- this is what fmj is usually designed for (or stronger caliber). I just feel that sp or this impact ammo would create 'more stopping power' or putting the person down on impact. Maybe I should try and find some of those gellatin blocks and put 1-2 rounds in various blocks and run a case study, lol.

As for reloading; I do this as well. I only reload my 223's though. I don't cast my own bullets. I do feel accuracy and reliability is increased when making your own shit as opposed to some assembly line.

Soft points are good, but extremely outdated.

Right now people need to look at what the police and other types of firms use who have a high chance of killing people are using.

Gold dots, critical defense, HST, ranger T and PDX1 are all amazingly effective rounds regardless of caliber.


This is a good chart to look at
9mmhp2.jpg


Most of the tested ammo above has expanded to nearly DOUBLE the size as the host round (from .358 to .65 in most cases.) as well as penetrated the required 12 inches. Most of these types of ammo will also go through 6 sheets of drywall and still be extremely viable. Interestingly enough, 223 will actually have less penetration effectively against drywall than many handgun rounds. The reason is high speed 223 operates in a similar manner to your 85gr frangible ammo, the difference being is it fragments and will penetrate more than 12" into the target.
 
Why would you want to? The last thing you want to do with a dangerous person is get close to them. That's the whole point of shooting them.
That's my point. After you've shot them, I wouldn't say they're particularly dangerous anymore. Also, if you're using a gun on the street, it's going to be at pretty close range. You'd have to have god-awful aim to need a second magazine..
Who says the other guy doesn't have a knife/gun/ect?
After they'd been shot, I'm not sure they'd be in much of a condition to use it. Especially the knife.
 
That's my point. After you've shot them, I wouldn't say they're particularly dangerous anymore. Also, if you're using a gun on the street, it's going to be at pretty close range. You'd have to have god-awful aim to need a second magazine..

No man, no. I've personally witnessed entire firefights where hundreds of rounds were spent and not a single person was touched.

Adrenaline as well as a million environmental variables come into play to the point that even the most range-seasoned sharpshooter will miss a target 6 feet away. It happens. It happened to me. Luckily, it happened to the shitheads that were shooting at me as well.

After they'd been shot, I'm not sure they'd be in much of a condition to use it. Especially the knife.

No again. Adrenaline is a hell of a drug. Many people in a combat scenario don't even know they're shot - even seriously - until their attention is brought to it by the sight of their own blood, someone else pointing it out, or trying to use the body part that's been shot (i.e. trying to lift their arm with a shoulder that's been shredded).

Don't ever ever ever count on a person being shot staying down. Not until the meat wagon boys have put a sheet over his head.

Edit: I just realized I didn't clarify: this didn't happen in some bar fight in the US, it was in the sandbox when a dozen or more dipshits decided to storm the line 10 minutes before my watch relief. I'm not an ex-thug. Just a lucky recipient of an all-expenses-paid trip to a huge beach with no ocean.

Gun fights aren't fun. They're scary as fuck and abso-fucking-lutely nothing like the movies. People don't lurch back after they've been shot. They keep coming until they're basically sawed in half.

I don't like to get into talks about guns even though I still carry. It always turns into a shitstorm. Anti-gun people are going to scream "WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!!" And people that are overly-infatuated with guns should spend some time in areas of the world where you really do need a weapon for defense, not right around the corner from their house while pumping gas into their H2 with their matching "tactical" (lol) holster. Neither camp makes much sense to me.
 
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That's my point. After you've shot them, I wouldn't say they're particularly dangerous anymore. Also, if you're using a gun on the street, it's going to be at pretty close range. You'd have to have god-awful aim to need a second magazine..

After they'd been shot, I'm not sure they'd be in much of a condition to use it. Especially the knife.


There are literally hundreds of cases of people who have been shot yet killed people.

My uncle was almost one of them if you would have read before. Shot a guy 3 times in the heart and he was STILL a threat with a knife for more than 30 seconds due to PCP.

Not too long ago in Cincinnati there was a pretty famous case of a female cop shooting a drugged up man 5 times from point blank with a 357 magnum only to be killed by the man's sawed off 22 magnum handgun.

Kyle dinkheller is another case, google the video if you want however it involves a law officer bleeding out over the course of several minutes from multiple rifle wounds. He like you thought that putting a bullet or two in a bad guy was a good idea and would be 'enough'.

Furthermore, the clerk in this video would also be dead following your advice http://www.fox19.com/story/16948016/watch-security-video-shows-clerk-shooting-would-be-robber The bad guy in this case took 4 rounds to the chest from point blank range, yet still was alive to shoot at the clerk 3 times. He was able to get into a car and drive no less than 100yds before bleeding out.

The Miami FBI shootout and hollywood shotouts are also great cases. In both instances men were shot yet shot or killed many people. In the FBI case it was the worst massacre of FBI agents known.
 
It takes up a fair amount of time, though. I bought all the equipment several years ago, and reloaded quite a bit. Collecting your brass is a pain, especially on an indoor range. That's assuming they let you; many ranges make money from recycling spent brass. Then you have to clean it, deprime it, size it, then reload it. You have to be careful and awake so you don't accidentally double-charge a round. I have a Lee turret press which speeds some of this up, but it gets old.
Not to mention, three or four years ago primers were getting hard to find locally, and you need to pay a hazmat fee to get them shipped which eats into your savings.

If I did more long distance shooting with a rifle, I would probably be more into it since you're building the perfect load for accuracy for one specific rifle, and only loading a few rounds at a time. The time it takes to load enough pistol ammo for a trip to the range is quite a bit more.

I see it being cost effective when reloading (not including my time). Some people do it not to just save money, but for accuracy and hobby purposes. It's a fun hobby if you ask me.


This is a good chart to look at
9mmhp2.jpg

I'd like to see how different fmj's look upon impact. Any charts/pix on that? Cool chart though, thanks for the post/info
 
Great thread! Great info shocker.

You should like the Walther Rob... my buddies 380 shot suuuuuper smooth. His new LC9 I don't really care for.

I'm also in the market for a CC sidearm. I really love full size Glocks because how comfortable the grip is for my hand size (and everything else about glocks), but want a sub compact that I can carry more comfortably. If Glock made a single stack, I think I'd be in love. (they're just too thick)

Considering the Diamondback DB9, but lots of jam reports on youtube are kinda detering me still, plus its a 6 +1 :(

Just became interested in Sigs lately, and a few have been recommended, but I have yet to check them out in person yet.