And best commercial goes to...
- Thread starter papajohn56
- Start date
That's a shakedown. Here's how I'll bet it played:
1. Dum-dum drivers crashed their cars, then went to their insurers and said, "I have comprehensive. Pay me!"
2. Insurers, feeling a little sore in the rear, thought to themselves, "Shit, we just lost a bunch of cash. It's not like we're State Farm! We're small. We ain't made o' money! I hate our customers. Call some other podunk insurance companies, and see how bad they're gettin' it."
3. A bright idea: Toyota took a ton of heat for the pedal problem, even though NHTSA debunked it. They sure don't wanna go through the media again. Solution? "SUE! They'll settle. It's less than a quarter mill, and they'll pay that just to make us go away."
This link isn't a response to my post, it's a non-sequitur. I'm not debating how Toyota handled the accusations as a PR decision. I'm debating the factual nature of Toyota accelerator pedals sticking. The nature of those gas pedals has an objective truth. Either Toyota had a manufacturing problem that caused them to stick or they didn't.
First, I responded to papajohn who made an anecdotal claim with no warrant:
Then, you implied Toyota breaks don't work
Both times I linked information on how investigations revealed that Toyota did not bear fault for sticky accelerator pedals. A logical response to my posts would have been links to more recent studies that included information on how the NHTSA discovered something new. I haven't found those studies. I don't think they exist.
Corporations do cost-benefit analysis all the time to determine the value of defending lawsuits. A settlement does not imply any guilt. If we used that criterion, all major corporations would be guilty of dozens of crimes every year.
The NHTSA did not debunk anything. They did a preliminary investigation and couldn't conclude anything so they passed the buck to the Department of Transportation and NASA. Their findings will be released tomorrow.
This article is from February 2010 and predates the NHTSA study which found no sticky accelerator pedals. You should check the dates on these before you post them.
If you find a new NHSTA study or other article with new information about the sticky pedals it would be relevant to the discussion. Until then, we have to go based on the most recent verified factual evidence: Toyota did not have sticky accelerator pedals.
All I see is a link that says new findings will be released in the future. I don't see any link of actual new findings.
I'm evaluating the objective truth based on the most recent evidence available. It sounds like you're evaluating based on the possibility of new evidence later on.
If something new comes out tomorrow, then I'll apply the new evidence to my beliefs and have a different opinion on the matter. Until then, I'm grounded in critical thinking and you're linking legal settlements.
I mentioned here the NHTSA has "all but debunked" the issue. I chose my words carefully to remain valid. Here, I was less careful with my words due to being in a hurry. That's on me. I should have slowed down and repeated "all but."
My indiscretion is a good sign that I need to climb out of the STS rabbit hole. It's been good sparring with you today, and we'd probably have some kick-ass discussions in person.
But I'm gonna go make some money now.
The Wikipedia page on the Toyota Recalls of '09-'10 is pretty comprehensive. It starts off with tons and tons of listings on lawsuits and stuff against toyota, showing all of the complaints, pretty much.
Then in debunks them all. Toyota, in my opinion, is owed BILLIONS of lost revenue from the world's Press outlets, most of which was CNN.
Long story short, Toyota had a 100% complete rumor-ball thrown at them and yes, I agree with Jake completely that the timing for their attack versus the big-three US automaker's bailout request was questionable, to say the least.
...in fact...
wikipedia said:
...23% of Americans believe the US government was behind the whole smear campaign.
The electronic throttle was cleared, but not the "previously identified sticking accelerator pedals". The throttle was cleared and the floor mats may not be their problem, but the sticking pedals are.
This is the problem they face. The floor mats could be considered a drivers fault (especially if they were aftermarket mats), but they could only blame the mats for a handful of the deaths. The rest seem to be due to the sticking accelerator pedal, and that is a manufacturing issue.
And this is the other problem - namely, they've known about the issue for years and failed to take the proper steps that could have saved some of the 89 people that died.
Dullspace, you posted that link as if this cleared up the previous issue, but that isn't what was at stake. Another massive recall was at stake for a new problem, if the electronic throttle was found to be what caused these problems. However, you're posting this as if it clears Toyota from any culpability in the previous crashes and deaths, but that's not what the NHTSA study concluded.
Hope that clears things up.
Hope that clears things up.
The claim against Toyota has always been "I was pressing the brakes and the car wouldn't slow down." That's why Toyotas scared people. If the accelerator pedal becomes physically stuck, it is easy to stop the car by applying the brakes and turning the engine off. An electronic problem in a drive-by-wire car is a much bigger issue because it would prevent the car from being stopped at all.
Toyota received 3 complaints for sticky accelerator pedals in 2009. It wasn't until the media went hysterical with a floor mat recall and delusion set in that the volume of problems increased. So, the blackboxes were analyzed and it was found that the drivers were pressing the accelerator and had deluded themselves into believing they were pressing the brakes.
Recalls happen all the time but we're discussing this one because we believe it caused a large number of deaths. I'm not arguing that Toyota didn't issue a recall. I'm arguing the impact of the problem. If there were 3 complaints for this problem in 2009 on these same models, and blackboxes show the drivers mistakenly had their feet firmly planted on the accelerator, I am hesitant to blame their manufacturing.
Toyota received 3 complaints for sticky accelerator pedals in 2009. It wasn't until the media went hysterical with a floor mat recall and delusion set in that the volume of problems increased. So, the blackboxes were analyzed and it was found that the drivers were pressing the accelerator and had deluded themselves into believing they were pressing the brakes.
Recalls happen all the time but we're discussing this one because we believe it caused a large number of deaths. I'm not arguing that Toyota didn't issue a recall. I'm arguing the impact of the problem. If there were 3 complaints for this problem in 2009 on these same models, and blackboxes show the drivers mistakenly had their feet firmly planted on the accelerator, I am hesitant to blame their manufacturing.
89 reported deaths as a result of a sticking accelerator pedal. That's a lot.
Most people will not have the presence of mind to turn the engine off before an impending crash. Maybe if you're driving down the highway and just happen to notice your car is accelerating and you have time to think - but if you're about to crash very few people will have the presence of mind to turn the car off.
None of the other manufacturers have this problem, and certainly not to this magnitude. That means either Toyota drivers are dumber than everybody else, or the pedal might actually be sticking.
Y'all just wait.
There are over 40 Chinese car companies. Only 3 American.
A lot of these car companies have a significant presence in the East, where China is quickly becoming economic hegemon with regards to almost all technologies. Most of these vehicles go straight to the Middle East, all of Asia, and are making huge inroads in India and Africa, and now are beginning to appear in Russia (I've seen them myself) and Eastern Europe. GG Western World.
Chinese Auto Manufacturers List - Information on Car, Truck, Bus, Motorcycle Makers in China (chery automobile, geely, gwm etc.)
There are over 40 Chinese car companies. Only 3 American.
A lot of these car companies have a significant presence in the East, where China is quickly becoming economic hegemon with regards to almost all technologies. Most of these vehicles go straight to the Middle East, all of Asia, and are making huge inroads in India and Africa, and now are beginning to appear in Russia (I've seen them myself) and Eastern Europe. GG Western World.
Chinese Auto Manufacturers List - Information on Car, Truck, Bus, Motorcycle Makers in China (chery automobile, geely, gwm etc.)