trillion dollar bailout! I'm no economist but hear me out

[gopher]

Ugh, stop splitting up the quotes, it's a bitch trying to reply to them.

1) How and why you go from me saying that stocks of financial institutions lost 5 trillion dollars or so to your 50 trillion leveraged derivatives and then claiming that I said something different remains a mystery to me. But whatever.

2) There is no market because the government got involved and introduced their intention/plan one day and then the complete opposite the other day.

The second part again has nothing to do with the point at hand.

3) You aren't seriously quoting a blog post from late September that references data from August 2008 to prove there is no credit crisis, are you? I think you might find that a certain company filing for bankruptcy the following month and various other financial institutions being dragged down along with it might have changed things just slightly.

You also might want to take another look at those idiotic graphs, especially the one that says excess reserves at depository institutions. Which, you know, is not the fed. While we're at it, the M1 money multiplier is relevant as well, seeing how it corresponds closely to the theoretical definition of money. One is showing a decrease, while the other shows the banks hoarding their money, yet somehow credit is freely available?

4) Uhm, yeah, it is? How about you go look it up in a dictionary one of these days.

5) Oh wow. Germans have stopped accepting Euros from Spain or Greece? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you just sounded? Has Oregon stopped accepting US dollars from California yet? If not, I bet this will happen very soon, would make sense.

Also, backing off of inflationary policy? Been following any European news lately? And other central banks devaluing their currency? How about other markets having their own share of problems, in addition to gambling on the US market. The situation in Eastern Europe and South America has the potential to cripple European Banks more than the US sub-prime mortgage has so far, and that's an area US banks hardly touched.

And come one, trying to use Fox to boost someones credibility?

 

[Nikko]

 

[vcff10]

1st Post man what a time to Jump In...

A very smart person said we should give a rebate to business in the form of a tax deduction Or Credit for every "new" Employee they have added by the end of 2009.

Do this in the form of a tax credit / rebate of 30k per person and it only costs 90 billion to create 3mm jobs because BUSINESSES WILL HIRE PEOPLE if they only have to pay a small portion of salary to a "Productive Worker" which in turn gives people money which will in turn would stimulate the economy!

But our wonderful politicians WANT the Credit for fixing the issue ..... So unfortunately this will never happen...

JOBS LOL

If it were that simple.....

 

[guerilla]

5) Oh wow. Germans have stopped accepting Euros from Spain or Greece? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you just sounded? Has Oregon stopped accepting US dollars from California yet? If not, I bet this will happen very soon, would make sense.

I'm about to show you how ridiculous you just sounded. There are multiple Euro central banks who print Euro notes, and German citizens started refusing Spanish and Greek notes (based on serial #) at banks because there are inflation concerns that the Euro banks in those countries are debasing to fight their own crack ups.

Support for euro in doubt as Germans reject Latin bloc notes - Telegraph

3) You aren't seriously quoting a blog post from late September that references data from August 2008 to prove there is no credit crisis, are you?

The second article was from January 9th. When someone provides sources, read them. You will not look so stupid as to continue to talk about things you do not understand.

You also might want to take another look at those idiotic graphs, especially the one that says excess reserves at depository institutions. Which, you know, is not the fed. While we're at it, the M1 money multiplier is relevant as well, seeing how it corresponds closely to the theoretical definition of money. One is showing a decrease, while the other shows the banks hoarding their money, yet somehow credit is freely available?

You couldn't even post the relevant graphs, and now you're telling me M1 means something? TMS means something. M3 (maintained independently) means something. M1 is one of the narrowest ranges.

Also, backing off of inflationary policy? Been following any European news lately?

Yes I have. That is why I know more than you. You don't have a clue of what is happening in Germany, but you're continuing to make general assertions totally unbacked by facts.

And come one, trying to use Fox to boost someones credibility?

Schiff has been on every channel, writing Op-Eds in every major business paper, and selling a crap ton of his investment books because his strategy is making a lot of people wealthy. That said, I don't need to boost his cred. He has been right whereas the stuff you talk about has been wrong. Because you listen to the same discredited idiots who said there would be a second half recovery in 2008, not $9 trillion in FED outlays to save a global economic meltdown. Continue living in your cave.

You're on ignore. Go troll someone else. I don't have time to educate someone who insists that down is up.

Debasement from other countries in the Dollar Index basket

For instance, the policy rate of the Bank of England (BOE) was lowered from 5.75% in November 2007 to the current level of 1%. The sharp decline in the BOE policy interest rate is in line with policies of other central banks. The US central bank (the Fed) has lowered its policy rate (the federal-funds rate target) from 5.25% in August 2007 to around zero at present.
Also, the relatively "conservative" European Central Bank (ECB) has been aggressively lowering its policy interest rate. The rate was lowered from 4.25% in September last year to the present target of 2%.
Similarly, the Bank of Japan (BOJ) has visibly eased its interest rate stance. The policy rate was reduced from 0.5% in September 2008 to the current level of 0.1%.

http://mises.org/story/3342

 

[axxomarketing]

Gone in 60 Days: Citi and Bank of America Won’t Live to See May

Gone in 60 Days: Citi and Bank of America Won't Live to See May | Charting Stocks

say goodbye to citi and bank of america..

 

[Webwonder]

I didn't even read this thread but the openers name is enough for me to say "you're a piece of fucking shit", die and like it.

 

[axxomarketing]

 

[Rage9]

ROFL! Did you make that?

 

[weezing]

That's so cool!

 

[Rasta_Cook]

First i want to say, that, Guerilla, you own this thread...

now after i said that, let me sound like a total idiot by sharing some thoughts...

money... money is a system... its a scam... its like a game, its only because we are all playing the game that money has value... people who create the game, know how to exploit it, there are people who cheat, people who get caught etc... but in the end its kinda like just a big game we are all playing because we know that its just a piece of paper and even if the money was backed by gold... thats not real value either, who cares about this "precious" metal, just because its rare doesnt mean we should care about it... gold statues and jewelry is useless, it doesnt serve any purpose... i know gold is used in other shit like to do electric cable or stuff, but really, its over-valued... water is far more important... and yet we waste it like we'll never run out of it ( now at least, not in the future lol )

I asked myself what is the most precious thing... for me...
The only thing in life that has value is time, you can own the planet one day, you can lose it the next day and start over again... you can own tons of realestate in newyork including 2 large towers and the next day they get owned by 2 planes ( orly ) but you cant go back in time, no matter what you do, you will never get back the time that you already spent. You will never have more time, the moment you are born the clock is ticking... The older we get, the more valuable our time is, because there is less left.

So if i decide that for some reason im going to give 8 hours of my day, 5 times per week to some freaking guy who tell me what to do and allow me only 2 freaking weeks of vacation per year, it better be worth it, cuz ill never have those hours again. If its not worth it and i still do it... then i guess, im just a willing slave... profit needs to be mutual, always, or else it is slavery... profit is not fair... profit = injustice, we should not profit from other people... but in our little game, that is the whole point, the more profit you got, the more rewards you get in life.

We need a massive rethink of our whole systems, social, financial, transport, education , everything, we have to evolve at some point...

 

[axxomarketing]

Its fucking amazing what technology can do these days..

ROFL! Did you make that?

 

[guerilla]

First i want to say, that, Guerilla, you own this thread...

Thanks.

but in the end its kinda like just a big game we are all playing because we know that its just a piece of paper and even if the money was backed by gold... thats not real value either, who cares about this "precious" metal, just because its rare doesnt mean we should care about it... gold statues and jewelry is useless, it doesnt serve any purpose... i know gold is used in other shit like to do electric cable or stuff, but really, its over-valued... water is far more important... and yet we waste it like we'll never run out of it ( now at least, not in the future lol )

This is why I and others like Ron Paul advocate a free market in money. The means of exchange should be what people trust, and functions effectively as money. It doesn't have to be gold. Also, gold is not used as money for it's intrinsic value, even if people like Peter Schiff say that. Historically gold has been money because it was rare enough you didn't have to use a ton to buy a loaf of bread like you would with steel, it is soft so you can divide it, it's impossible to duplicate (hard to counterfeit), etc.

Now that we are in an age of digital monetary titles, which are also fiat, we don't need something like gold or silver, although either would work.

What is wrong with the money system isn't only that it is bad, but that it is a monopoly. You cannot transact in diamonds, or circuit boards. Legal tender laws make that impossible.

I asked myself what is the most precious thing... for me...
The only thing in life that has value is time, you can own the planet one day, you can lose it the next day and start over again... you can own tons of realestate in newyork including 2 large towers and the next day they get owned by 2 planes ( orly ) but you cant go back in time, no matter what you do, you will never get back the time that you already spent. You will never have more time, the moment you are born the clock is ticking... The older we get, the more valuable our time is, because there is less left.

People have brought this up many times. The problem is, it's a kooky idea. Every hour is different from person to person. Every hour (the 1st as opposed to the 8th) has a different quality from another. Proposing money systems like this are irrational because every piece of currency would have a different value, drawn on a different bank, and because you would be basically holding receipts for human capital, you would need to be able to audit someone's health and his activities daily before you would accept his money, for fear of default.

It would be total chaos. It's fine to have multiple currencies, but multiple, unbacked currencies, from multiple "banks" with no method of clearing them....

And besides, why time? What's important to you, might not be important to me. That's why we have common neutral mediums of exchange. So if I have chairs to trade and want sugar, and you have milk to trade and want chairs, we use money to exchange because I don't want your milk, I need sugar.

So if i decide that for some reason im going to give 8 hours of my day, 5 times per week to some freaking guy who tell me what to do and allow me only 2 freaking weeks of vacation per year, it better be worth it, cuz ill never have those hours again. If its not worth it and i still do it... then i guess, im just a willing slave... profit needs to be mutual, always, or else it is slavery... profit is not fair... profit = injustice, we should not profit from other people... but in our little game, that is the whole point, the more profit you got, the more rewards you get in life.

Ok, you just lost the plot here, badly. Profit is why we exchange. If I trade you $1 for a soda, you value the $1 more than the soda, and I value the soda more than $1, otherwise we would never have made the trade (voluntarily). This is known as the subjective theory of value. What you are talking about is the labor theory of value, which has been refuted.

You're not a slave. People in Asia chained to sewing machines, they are slaves. Not some westerner who has pizza delivery and Shamwow.

Slap Chop yourself some happiness bro!

We need a massive rethink of our whole systems, social, financial, transport, education , everything, we have to evolve at some point...

We don't need a rethink. We need to start thinking. A = A. Value is subjective. The foundation of all rights begin with the right to own property (self-ownership).

There exists scarcity in this world, which is why we study economics. Economics is just the understanding of how man acts in a world of scarcity. How he makes trades. What he chooses to value. It's actually a social science, even though a lot of people try to pass it off as graphs and mathematical formulas, at the heart of the statistics, is an understanding about who we are and how we relate to the world we live in, not just amongst ourselves, but with nature as well.

 

[Rasta_Cook]

And besides, why time? What's important to you, might not be important to me.....

I agree with that, thats why i said to me thats what i think is the most important... however i believe that its pretty important to everyone, unless you wanna die... it is the most valuable thing to all life forms, without it there is no life period. at least thats the way i see it...

It would be total chaos.

I dont know how a system based on time would work, but you are thinking about it in the same mindset as our current system, which of course doesnt work... maybe time is not the answer maybe its something else... I dont know what, but any type of mineral is not the answer ( diamonds, steel, silver, gold, etc )

Profit is why we exchange..... You're not a slave. People in Asia chained to sewing machines, they are slaves. Not some westerner who has pizza delivery and Shamwow.

An exchange doesnt have to be based around profit... If coca cola sells me a soda at 1$ and i pay that 1$ knowing that it costed them only 15 cents to make that soda, well guess what, i feel being ripped off, but what am i going to do ? nothing cuz all the sodas are priced at that price anyways, and if there are cheaper alternative then ill go for the cheapest brands because its pretty much the same thing but at half the price, sure maybe the packaging is less nice, who cares... so just because i trade with X soda brand doesnt mean its fair... why should we has a society reward people who take advantage of others, it is not necessary for coca cola's owners to have multiple yatch and villas everywhere in the world, driving in ferraris and what not while people who actually do shit that matter in life are stuck with crappy income for the most part , coca cola execs could still be making lots of money and live comfortably while ripping us off alot less and spending less on multi million propaganda campains about how cool it is to drink a drink full of sugar that is not good for your health anyways.... see this is what im talking about, we lost the real value of things... oh btw why the fuck do hockey players earn freaking millions of dollars for playing a game ? wtf is that ? I dont care how good you are, its just not right... just because people pay for things doesnt make those things right, people are stupid.

As for chinese slaves...Its the same thing... people in china are slaves because we ("westerner") need them in order to live the way we do right now, if they are the slaves we are their masters, but dont be a fool, we have masters too, corporations... all government are masters of the population... the government is the ultimate corporation and corporations exist for profit first, not for our best interest... althought that is what they want us to believe.

maybe you've seen this video :
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HqvE6uye1Y"]YouTube - Ethics -CEO's[/ame]

 

[guerilla]

I agree with that, thats why i said to me thats what i think is the most important... however i believe that its pretty important to everyone, unless you wanna die... it is the most valuable thing to all life forms, without it there is no life period. at least thats the way i see it...

Right, but what's important to you is what you exchange for, not what you use to exchange.

I dont know how a system based on time would work, but you are thinking about it in the same mindset as our current system, which of course doesnt work... maybe time is not the answer maybe its something else... I dont know what, but any type of mineral is not the answer ( diamonds, steel, silver, gold, etc )

Minerals might not be the answer for you, but it might be for someone else. Again, you have to recognize that money's only purpose is to facilitate exchange and be a reliable store of wealth. It doesn't have to actually be anything desirable for it's own ends, as long as it facilitates trade. The current system doesn't work because the money is not honest. There is a monopoly on the supply, which is constantly being inflated (counterfeited) and you are not allowed (legal tender laws) to use another form of money which is not counterfeited daily.

Market money, which is a medium of exchange which arises in the market, selected by people making trades at the moment of the trade, is much more decentralized, and thus, cannot be effectively or perhaps even profitably counterfeited.

An exchange doesnt have to be based around profit...

If there was no profit in an exchange, no one would do them. That's my point. If you understand why man acts, and why he makes transactions, then profit is very necessary. If I do not think there is profit (enjoyment, satisfaction, happiness, an increase in value) in a $1 soda, then I will not buy it. If I think the soda will provide me more value than my $1, then I make the trade, considering it a better use of my money than saving it.

If you took away the profit motive (trades which increase general happiness) you would basically plunge man into an irrational state of chaos.

If coca cola sells me a soda at 1$ and i pay that 1$ knowing that it costed them only 15 cents to make that soda, well guess what, i feel being ripped off, but what am i going to do ? nothing cuz all the sodas are priced at that price anyways, and if there are cheaper alternative then ill go for the cheapest brands because its pretty much the same thing but at half the price, sure maybe the packaging is less nice, who cares...

If you really felt you were being ripped off, why would you buy it? That doesn't make any sense. It seems to me that you resent the high price of the coke, but no one is forcing you to buy it at that price. Commerce would be impossible if prices were not set as supply/demand. We live in a world of scarcity. Demand is infinite. But supply is finite. There are only so many cokes produced, and this constraint keeps the price above zero, actually the price gets bid up until it is as high as it can be, and every unit gets sold.

so just because i trade with X soda brand doesnt mean its fair...

If it's not fair, why do you buy it?

why should we has a society reward people who take advantage of others

Are they taking advantage of others? Or are they providing value by making products people are willing to buy at a price that is profitable to the producer? Why would you go to work, if you couldn't make more than the value of your labor if you employed it for yourself?

it is not necessary for coca cola's owners to have multiple yatch and villas everywhere in the world, driving in ferraris and what not while people who actually do shit that matter in life are stuck with crappy income for the most part , coca cola execs could still be making lots of money and live comfortably while ripping us off alot less and spending less on multi million propaganda campains about how cool it is to drink a drink full of sugar that is not good for your health anyways.... see this is what im talking about, we lost the real value of things... oh btw why the fuck do hockey players earn freaking millions of dollars for playing a game ? wtf is that ?

No one owes you anything. If you don't like how much coke producers make, don't buy their products. But if you believe in human liberty, then you're way out of line criticizing how others spend their money. It's none of their business how you live, and none of your business how they do.

"The real value of things" as you define it. People make too much, as you define it. You give people your money voluntarily, then complain that you have poor impulse control and resent them for selling it to you at a price you agreed to.

Do you realize how irrational you sound?

I dont care how good you are, its just not right... just because people pay for things doesnt make those things right, people are stupid.

But it's none of your business if they are smart or stupid, what they buy or don't buy. If you're dissatisfied with your world and your life, that is your problem. Because other people make smart or dumb decisions is irrelevant. Which is why your value system is no more righteous than anyone else's. The value systems that survive are the ones that are most profitable, and most efficient. If drinking coke kills dumb people and improverishes them, then that will eventually phase out of an economy as a really bad use of resources.

The reason why there are so many dumb fucks today, is that the state subsidizes people who can't hold down a job, can't socialize with others, sit around and watch TV all day, can barely read and write etc. If those people had to make something of themselves, they wouldn't drink beer and eat hot dogs every day. But someone underwrites their bad habits, and they persist.

It's like someone wrote here recently that they didn't like the entitlement or subsidized bailout culture. Well, it's going to get worse if you keep bailing people out. Welfare doesn't lead to the end of poverty, it just leads to more people collecting welfare. It doesn't take a genius to observe that.

maybe you've seen this video :
YouTube - Ethics -CEO's

I haven't and I will probably pass. That is superficial. It's a strawman meant to inspire class conflict, and distract you from the game being played above the game.

The issues with our systems are not because of CEOs or corporations. The issues are a lack of understanding of economics (human action) and a respect for individual liberty.

 

[Rasta_Cook]

meh, you win, i wasnt trying to argue with you anyways, you own the thread hehe
just writing my thoughts,
cheers

 

[bcc423]

No one ever borrowed their way out of bankruptcy.

Donald Trump just called, said you are wrong about that.

 

[SitPoMk]

Donald Trump just called, said you are wrong about that.

And where is he now? I haven't heard about that dude in forever isn't he having a shit load of problems again, financially

 

[guerilla]

Donald Trump just called, said you are wrong about that.

When you owe money you can borrow from someone else, to exchange one debt and one repayment horizon for another.

But it is only sustainable as long as

(1) You can make your interest payments
(2) There is always someone willing to lend at a rate you can afford to repay.

If there is any disturbance to this situation, you will become insolvent and unable to continue.

It is never more than patchwork. If you're unable to become productive, and pay back debt, you are always going to be walking the tightrope over a disaster.

 

[Isostar13]

And where is he now? I haven't heard about that dude in forever isn't he having a shit load of problems again, financially

He's actually doing quite well. It helps to read before you post. One sector of the donald trump business empire, I think the casinos in Atlantic City, of which D owns only about 20% is doing shitty. The rest of his stuff is solid, for the moment.