Sorry Born Agains.... Hawking says there is no heaven.

Atheism is the non belief in a god or deity, it is not an organised religion or society, so as a person who doesn't believe in god he is an atheist by definition, whether he likes it or not.

No, he is only an atheist if he claims to know that god does not exist, otherwise he is an agnostic.

In most of Europe religion touches almost every part of society in some way or another and not seeing that shows ignorance in its highest form. The only countries that might be a slight exception to this are the more secular countries (read atheist) like Sweden. You clearly do not get around and have not been to places like Spain, Italy, Ireland, France etc. if you think that religious people and religious influence isn't all around effecting all of us whether we like it or not.

I know all the countries you stated and have family both in France and Spain. Besides I was born and live half the year in Portugal (90%+ christian, 84% catholic) and see no significant effects on society (and no effects in my life).
 


No, he is only an atheist if he claims to know that god does not exist, otherwise he is an agnostic.

The problem that you seem to have is in the understanding of what Atheism is. Atheism is not a rejection of the possibility of a god or gods in the same way as it is not a rejection of the possibility of fairies at the bottom of the garden. Atheists don't believe in what they think has not been proven to exist. An agnostic is pretty much exactly the same, as they state that they do not know either, so an agnostic atheist is just another term for an atheist, it is just a way of taking the sting out of the tail of stigma attached to atheism by the "believers". Atheists do not "claim to know that god does not exist", not sure where you got that.

I know all the countries you stated and have family both in France and Spain. Besides I was born and live half the year in Portugal (90%+ christian, 84% catholic) and see no significant effects on society (and no effects in my life).

I live in Spain, I'm Irish and I am also very well traveled.

My business has been frequently disrupted by so called religious holidays. Just one small example for you. There are thousands.
 
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No, he is only an atheist if he claims to know that god does not exist, otherwise he is an agnostic.

Atheism is just a condition, it's equivalent to being "stationary" or "moving".

It's disbelief, NOT belief.

All babies were born Atheists. Most come to believe in whatever their parents teach them.

You also cannot "convert" to Atheism, there's no indoctrination of Atheism. Atheism comes from self-enlightenment, being religious comes from ignorance.
 
Atheism is the non belief in a god or deity, it is not an organised religion or society, so as a person who doesn't believe in god he is an atheist by definition, whether he likes it or not.

In most of Europe religion touches almost every part of society in some way or another and not seeing that shows ignorance in its highest form. The only countries that might be a slight exception to this are the more secular countries (read atheist) like Sweden. You clearly do not get around and have not been to places like Spain, Italy, Ireland, France etc. if you think that religious people and religious influence isn't all around effecting all of us whether we like it or not.

The only reason that you might find that some atheists are more vocal is that we are sick and tired of living our lives being dictated by religions. It is basically a revolution and we are starting to win. If atheists stay passive and quiet then that means that we have accepted that we must live as second class citizens that are resigned to the fact that we must live our lives in the servitude of your beliefs i.e. lobotimised sheep

Good post. I have no rep left to give I'm afraid.

This is why as I time goes on I've become a more vocal atheist. Religion has run a muck for years. It's got filthy rich and it still walks around with a swagger like it owns the place. People need to wake up. Religion has to start proving itself, or shut the fuck up and piss off. It's had too much it's own way for too long and it simply does not deserve it. The scam must be stopped.

"do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know with certainty whether any deity exists."

Truth be told no one can know, so technically every living person is an agnostic because a religionist can't know and neither can an atheist.

Also, you can't be an agnostic atheist, it's an oxymoron.
 
Atheism is not a rejection of the possibility of a god or gods in the same way as it is not a rejection of the possibility of fairies at the bottom of the garden.

Richard Dawkins said:
There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?

I’m not the one who’s having interpretative issues. Atheism and Agnosticism are different and a simple dictionary lookup proves that.

The “atheist stigma” was something that atheists brought upon themselves because they use any possible excuse to attack religions in a truculent way. I (and most people) do not fucking care. Shut up.

Also, you can't be an agnostic atheist, it's an oxymoron.

No it's not "God". Oxford dictionary. Go.

I'm out. Never argue with a horde of idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you out of exhaustion.
 
Uhm, no. It's not difficult to follow an hyperlink, just place the cursor above it and left click.
Arghh... I copied and pasted that but it was from the very next sentence which went on to define what a: Theist Agnostic is. Ooops. My bad.

I formally repeal your #2 Moron status, and place it onto myself for the day. :D

However, Nickster is 100% right in saying that a person who doesn't believe in god he is an atheist by definition, whether he likes it or not... Think about the word Atheist... How could it mean anything else?

A <---This part means "WITHOUT" or "ANTI"

Theist <--- This part means a "God"

There is no way at all to put those two parts of a word together and come up with a a word that means "Just doesn't have enough information so doesn't claim to know if there is a god or not."

That would be seriously bending the word's meaning.
 
The “atheist stigma” was something that atheists brought upon themselves because they use any possible excuse to attack religions in a truculent way

Dude you do realize that until very recently Atheists were being systematically murdered for their non belief. It's only BECAUSE people stand up and be vocal that we no longer have to hide in the shadows.

By the way you write I can tell that you are most probably an atheist too (albeit a reluctant one) and the rights you have today to believe what you want to have been bought about by vocal atheists.
 
Good post. I have no rep left to give I'm afraid.
I just repped him for you. That was an awesome point and he deserved it.

This is why as I time goes on I've become a more vocal atheist. Religion has run a muck for years. It's got filthy rich and it still walks around with a swagger like it owns the place. People need to wake up. Religion has to start proving itself, or shut the fuck up and piss off. It's had too much it's own way for too long and it simply does not deserve it. The scam must be stopped.
Here here!

Like the moral of the movie Religulous, religion is a threat to the existence of humanity; Especially now that we have powers like Nuclear weapons... Their prophecies of Armageddon could very well become a self-fulfilling prophecy, if the Secularists don't stop them.

The religious will snicker at this of course; they'll justify that they have the moral superiority over us and so therefore how could we stop them from doing evil? -But this is what blinds them from seeing it and therefore it makes it MORE likely to happen.

Here's an idea; does anyone here have the ability to start up a Group on WF? We need a private Group here just for those that would be OK with thumbing their nose at the big bad fairy.

Turbolapp?
 
> you can't be an agnostic atheist, it's an oxymoron

You're wrong. Gnosticism is concerned with whether we can have knowledge of a creation entity.

agnostic atheist = rejects the various religious explanations of how the universe works, and thinks that even if there was a creation entity, humans wouldn't be capable of having knowledge of it, or be made privy to it.

gnostic atheist = rejects the various religious explanations of how the universe works, and thinks that if there was a creation entity of some sort, it would actually be 'knowable' - we could gain knowledge of it, or it would make itself known to us.

agnostic theist = accepts one or more religious/spiritual explanations of how the universe works, but thinks that humans are not capable of having knowledge of a creation entity. This is someone who likely has a woolly, new-age idea of god as some form of energy or an inter-dimensional being which has no interest in making itself known to us.

gnostic theist = usually accepts only one religious/spiritual explanation of how the universe works, and they think they know either the creation entity itself or a demiurge (Eg. Christianity, Islam, etc). Some gnostic theists may believe in a currently unknown entity, but think that we may someday uncover and have knowledge of this being.

The use of the word 'agnostic' is wrong if the intention is to suggest that 'atheists state there definitely is no god, but agnostics say they can't be sure there is no god, and so are more accurate and reasonable people because they don't say (my) god definitely doesn't exist'. That is a crock of shit regurgitated by ignorant religious people. These misconstrued labels are tools which have historically helped the religious to attack and marginalise those who rejected their ideas. This bullshit use of 'agnostic' is a religious attempt to make it seem like atheists are thinking in unreasonable absolutes and extremes, when in fact the only people who deal in absolutes are the fucking religious themselves.

Atheism, as defined by atheists, is the rejection of specific religious explanations of the universe. Atheism makes no claims in itself as to whether a creation entity is possible or impossible, likely or unlikely. Atheists may have individual opinions about possibilities or likelihoods, but that's got fuck all to do with the fact of their atheism, which is simply that they've heard the extraordinary explanations of the religious and have rejected those unevidenced, ludicrous claims.

In fact, a christian, exactly like an atheist, rejects about 279 gods of creation: Zeus, Brahman, Mbombo, Ptah, Nanabozho, etc, etc, etc. The only thing that divides these two people is that the christian arbitrarily throws away their logic and accepts the 280th one, whereas the atheist rejects this entity for exactly the same consistent reasons for which the others were rejected.
 
Here's an idea; does anyone here have the ability to start up a Group on WF? We need a private Group here just for those that would be OK with thumbing their nose at the big bad fairy.

Sounds like you are trying to start some type of cult.

Like it says in the sacred Book of Wagenheim, "Haven't you got something better to do?"

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q80IMTliOmk"]YouTube - ‪Get A Life‬‏[/ame]
 
Atheism, as defined by atheists, is the rejection of specific religious explanations of the universe. Atheism makes no claims in itself as to whether a creation entity is possible or impossible, likely or unlikely. Atheists may have individual opinions about possibilities or likelihoods, but that's got fuck all to do with the fact of their atheism, which is simply that they've heard the extraordinary explanations of the religious and have rejected those unevidenced, ludicrous claims.

Well fuckin said.
 
In fact, a christian, exactly like an atheist, rejects about 279 gods of creation: Zeus, Brahman, Mbombo, Ptah, Nanabozho, etc, etc, etc. The only thing that divides these two people is that the christian arbitrarily throws away their logic and accepts the 280th one, whereas the atheist rejects this entity for exactly the same consistent reasons for which the others were rejected.

this is all that really matters when it comes to religious folks. They find it preposterous that you could not share the same beliefs as them, when the vast majority of the rest of the world do not share those beliefs.

I personally feel that the debate over the existence of god is not even something that can be argued. God is a perfect definition, it's outside the realm of logical reasoning. Unfortunately, no one has respect for traditional philosophical logic and we're left with arguments like "science vs. religion" and the real risk of kids getting taught fucking creationist myth bullshit in their high school biology classes. It's insulting to all of us who consider ourselves intelligent, free thinking people that others find it even close to being reasonable to compare such complete polar opposites of disciplines.

But this is because those who argue for such rights are simply not trained in classical logic and therefore are ill-equipped for having an appropriate, mature argument. It's like tossing a machine gun to a toddler and dropping them in a warzone. They shoot randomly, looking like a dickhead without blinking an eye. Fuck those toddlers. Fuck people who don't understand logic.

I describe myself as anti-religion. Organized faith systems are just legal cults that get away with far too many things and garner way too much privilege, support, and even respected opinion in the advanced world we live in today.

Fuck em all, they're an ancient scourge who routinely interfere with human advancement so they can maintain any sort of control they possibly can over the masses of those who find it permissible to sacrifice their own critical thinking skills for the possible ascension to a blissful heaven upon their death.
 
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Fuck em all, they're an ancient scourge who routinely interfere with human advancement so they can maintain any sort of control they possibly can over the masses of those who find it permissible to sacrifice their own critical thinking skills for the possible ascension to a blissful heaven upon their death.

And exactly what human advancement did we interfere in again. Please lay your scientific advanced mind on me.

Ever heart of Galileo or in more modern times Francis Collins.
 
Here’s a retelling of the Galileo story.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAra0BVjJp4]YouTube - ‪Galileo and the Church, Part 1 of 4‬‏[/ame]
 
And exactly what human advancement did we interfere in again. Please lay your scientific advanced mind on me.

Ever heart of Galileo...
Galileo?!? The guy that the Catholic locked away for a decade when his scientific findings challenged the vatican's world view? That's someone you're claiming for your side of this argument?

While Galileo was imprisoned they cut off his middle finger. No shit... I've seen it on display in Florence. I don't think he was a big fan of the church...
 
And exactly what human advancement did we interfere in again. Please lay your scientific advanced mind on me.

Ever heart of Galileo or in more modern times Francis Collins.

You are joking right?

Straight from Wikipedia page on Galileo:-

"Galileo's championing of Copernicanism was controversial within his lifetime, when a large majority of philosophers and astronomers still subscribed to the geocentric view that the Earth is at the centre of the universe. After 1610, when he began publicly supporting the heliocentric view, which placed the Sun at the centre of the universe, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. In February 1616, although he had been cleared of any offence, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture",[10] and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest."

You need to do some more reading about heresy and science my friend if you think that religion hasn't put up major roadblocks to advancement over all of human history.
 
I've never heard anything about atheists causing a period of history called "The Dark Ages" so...

Was that right after the decline of the Western Roman Empire.
But lets look at what atheist based governments this in the last 100 years. Why live in the dark ages, lets progress.
The atheist communist governments suppressed everything; Life, Art, Agriculture, Business, all kinds of progress. Thats why there's no Russian or Chinese dream. I know this because I lived it a little.
Sure glad to be here in the religious US of A. You live in the best government this world has ever seen, and its region based. Stop being so ungrateful. I've seen the other side, and its not that pretty.

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