Obama To Venture Into The Private Sector In Unprecedented Fashion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Capitalism is "better" to YOU than socialism. As an example, as crazy as it sounds polygamy is better for some women than a monogamous relationship. What you do incessantly is try to argue that because something is better for YOU it is better - full stop.
No, capitalism is objectively better as an economic system because it allows for free trade, economic growth (more prosperity, higher standards of living) and peace.

Yes, you are correct, people can voluntarily choose socialism. In an anarchist society, people would only deal with each other voluntarily, so socialists could get together and form communes. But they couldn't demand I trade with them, pay them taxes, or submit to their laws.

And when their economic order eventually collapses, they cannot show up in my yard, eating from my garden and bathing in my pool. That would be theft if they attempt to take from me by force or without permission, to satisfy their material needs they mismanaged. I could be charitable, but they could demand nothing of me.

So yes, people can choose socialism. But when the communists had to kill 100 million of their own citizens, I don't think they are big on voluntary compliance.

The essence of the entire discourse is my contention that you can't logically and rationally present your personal opinions as indisputable facts. The onus is on you.....
There is no onus on me. I am not a positivist. You cannot place an obligation on me. I have presented my facts, and will stand by them. When you deign to make a direct challenge to them, then we can debate their merits. But it is not debate if you never make a specific challenge, but just declare I am wrong because you are too invested in your own beliefs to challenge them.

Ultimately, someone might show up in this thread, and post, "Gee Guerilla, you are 100% right. I am a convert. You have made an indisputable argument". Even if they are lying, you have set yourself up to be wrong.

The onus is on you...
No, the onus is on you to provide the evidence you claimed to have. Right now, you are looking very dishonest in debate for making a false claim. The way to rectify that is to indicate in which post # or #s is the evidence you claimed to have.

I wouldn't even bother getting into it any further with her, she obviously has no interest in trying to understand what you are saying.
No, she has no interest in understanding or debating. She will continue to post strawman arguments and make ad hominem statements. Both are logical fallacies, neither belong in a fruitful and sincere debate.

I'm gunna sling some berries.

@Riddar, please post the Yellow Text again. If you post it enough times, sooner or later, you will win. I am sure of it. Use it in every thread. The louder and more repetitive your argument, they better it is. You are winning. Keep it up.

But do please provide the evidence you claimed to have. If you want, I can post a dictionary definition of evidence for you. :xmas-smiley-016:
 


No, capitalism is objectively better as an economic system because it allows for free trade, economic growth (more prosperity, higher standards of living) and peace.

Yes, you are correct, people can voluntarily choose socialism. In an anarchist society, people would only deal with each other voluntarily, so socialists could get together and form communes. But they couldn't demand I trade with them, pay them taxes, or submit to their laws.

And when their economic order eventually collapses, they cannot show up in my yard, eating from my garden and bathing in my pool. That would be theft if they attempt to take from me by force or without permission, to satisfy their material needs they mismanaged. I could be charitable, but they could demand nothing of me.

So yes, people can choose socialism. But when the communists had to kill 100 million of their own citizens, I don't think they are big on voluntary compliance.


There is no onus on you. I am not a positivist. You cannot place an obligation on me. I have presented my facts, and will stand by them. When you deign to make a direct challenge to them, then we can debate their merits. But it is not debate if you never make a specific challenge, but just declare I am wrong because you are too invested in your own beliefs to challenge them.

Ultimately, someone might show up in this thread, and post, "Gee Guerilla, you are 100% right. I am a convert. You have made an indisputable argument". Even if they are lying, you have set yourself up to be wrong.


No, the onus is on you to provide the evidence you claimed to have. Right now, you are looking very dishonest in debate for making a false claim. The way to rectify that is to indicate in which post # or #s is the evidence you claimed to have.


No, she has no interest in understanding or debating. She will continue to post strawman arguments and make ad hominem statements. Both are logical fallacies, neither belong in a fruitful and sincere debate.

I'm gunna sling some berries.

@Riddar, please post the Yellow Text again. If you post it enough times, sooner or later, you will win. I am sure of it. Use it in every thread. The louder and more repetitive your argument, they better it is. You are winning. Keep it up.

But do please provide the evidence you claimed to have. If you want, I can post a dictionary definition of evidence for you. :xmas-smiley-016:


You just don't get it do you?? Check out my signature! This is not about me favoring socialism over capitalism. This is about my contention that
YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS are not INDISPUTABLE FACTS.

It is NOT an INDISPUTABLE FACT that capitalism is better than socialism just like it isn't an indesputable fact that:

-monogamy is better than polygamy
-blond hair is better than black hair
-short is better than tall.

I'm going to stop now. There's no argument you can present that can make me believe that

YOUR OPINION=INDISPUTABLE FACT

I personally choose to live in a capitalist society vs. a socialist society because it WORKS FOR ME.

However, I can't go around contending that because it's a FACT for me that CAPITALISM works better than SOCIALISM it's an "objective reality".

The argument/debate I am having with you is no different than one I had with a friend who wanted to prevent Neo-Nazis from marching in downtown Stockholm because they were "bad".

Just because something is "bad" or "good" or "better" for you doesn't make it that way for someone else.


If the Swedes or the Norwegians or the Danes decide they prefer a more socialist system than a capitalist one, that is THEIR CHOICE. You can't conclude that somehow what they are doing is "objectively wrong".

You can't turn a subjective matter into an objective one. I'm promising myself this is the last time I'm ever going to get into any kind of debate like this....

You can choose to believe that your way of seeing the world is the "objective" and not "subjective" and that's fine. That's just not how I choose to live my life......

Good luck to us all making monies online....
 
This could possibly be one of the most ignorant post I have ever seen on this forum. I could be dickrolled 10 times over and not be as distressed as I am reading this post.

So you don't know what communism/socialism is??? why are you posting in this thread then? Look up the definition of socialism please.

Popeye, you are a sweetheart but you are an idiot. Please go back to doing what you are good at - making money online....

That's part of the reason our country is in the condition that it's in. We want to look out at the world and because we have the power to do so, we want to FORCE the world to SEE IT THE SAME WAY AMERICA/AMERICANS DO.


WE WANT TO BEHAVE AS IF OUR OPINIONS ARE INDISPUTABLE FACTS....

You go ahead and live that way. More and more Americans are traveling, experiencing other cultures and breaking free of the kind of small-mindedness and close-mindedness that led us to where we are now
 
Just because something is "bad" or "good" or "better" for you doesn't make it that way for someone else.
I never said it was. Which was why I maintained, you did not, and you still do not even understand my argument, and it is a holdover from the economics thread, where you also did not understand my argument.

Sorry for the friction. Thanks for laying off the yellow text, I owe you one.

Have a good night.
 
No, capitalism is objectively better

This is what I was always responding to. You can't behave as if this argument is a fact and not an opinion. I am sure both you and I would prefer WEALTH over POVERTY and this is a "FACT" for us......

However you can't argue that wealth is "objectively better" than poverty as it is an OPINION and not an INDESPUTABLE FACT. For the rational actor, wealth would be chosen over poverty. However, we as human beings have the choice to choose how to behave....


An economic system is a social system made of human beings who don't always act rationally.

Economics is a SOCIAL SCIENCE and not a NATURAL SCIENCE. My entire discourse has been about what I perceive as your attempt to treat economic theories as if they are natural law and not social laws...

In fact, one of the central flaws of modern economics is the major assumptions surrounding a) perfect information and b)bounded rationality
 
An economic system is a social system made of human beings who don't always act rationally.

Economics is a SOCIAL SCIENCE and not a NATURAL SCIENCE.

In fact, one of the central flaws of economics is the major assumption that people always behave rationally.
And I agree with all of this, and account for it. I have already told you praxeology is a social science. I have already told you that your assumptions about economics are incorrect because they do not apply to what I am talking about. You assume all economic thought is homogenous, ironically while arguing that people do not have homogenous feelings or objectives.

We're just talking past each other. Until you are willing to actually understand what I am writing, we can argue until the end of time and get nowhere. And thus far, you have mis-characterized my posts as being something they are not. And it's a flamewar, it's trashed the prior discussions, and I hope you are happy you got all of the attention you were seeking.

I mean it this time. Leechblock on. Good night.
 
Wow alot more arguing happened while I was away.

I will read that link you posted.

The thing I find interesting is your combination of free market/personal liberty/personal property positions.

First of all a small aside: The position of the anarchist that I was reading defines the freedom of man in this way.

"Our rights are inalienable. Each person born on the world is heir to all the preceding generations. The whole world is ours by right of birth alone. Duties imposed as obligations or ideals, such as patriotism, duty to the State, worship of God, submission to higher classes or authorities, respect for inherited privileges, are lies"

I cannot think of a more "complete" definition of freedom. They use this definition of freedom to support the notion that any property is theft: "The fact that Mankind cannot enter into his/her natural inheritance means that part of it has been taken from him or her" (more complete argument available at the previously supplied link)

What is your definition of personal freedom?

Moving on.

A large and complex market requires, if not regulation, then at least infrastructure. Market infrastructure requires upkeep. Upkeep requires resources. Who is to provide the resources to upkeep the market infrastructure?

At the moment this seems to me to be what governments are for. To maintain the infrastructures which allow us to keep a free market running. Including but not limited to roads. They require some form of income to maintain those infrastructures. How can things like roads that people use but are not tracked using be paid for if not through taxes (I am not saying taxes is the only way, but I am asking for an alternative)

Finally. One of the faults I can find with the "really free" market you are a proponent of, that is to say a market that exists with no barriers to trade, is that the formation of local and distributed monopolies is, to my mind though I will argue it point by point if you disagree, a natural result. How does a free market in a system with no regulation deal with monopolies and the dangers they pose to free market pricing.

(btw very much enjoying this thread now that I am less tired)
 
  • Like
Reactions: riddarhusetgal
For the record, I was never arguing!

My central premise was that when we make contentions based on economic theory, as economics is a social science and not a natural science we can't make arguments based on opinions as if they were facts (i.e. natural law).

Further, as the body of economic theory is based on 3 key assumptions:
-actors in a market are motivated by individualism
-there is bounded rationality
-there is perfect information

If one's premises are based on those assumptions, if those assumptions can be challenged (i.e. opinion vs. fact) so can the premises also

This is based on Aristotle's Theory of Logic, i.e syllogism.

If anyone on is interested you can read about it here http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/GreekScience/Students/Jordana/LOGIC.html (a little university lecture I found quickly online from Tufts University)

Therefore in every counterpoint I made, I questioned the assumptions as evidence that the conclusion drawn from the premises were questionable (see above)....
 
The thing I find interesting is your combination of free market/personal liberty/personal property positions.
It's the foundation of classic liberalism as the french understood it.

First of all a small aside: The position of the anarchist that I was reading defines the freedom of man in this way.

"Our rights are inalienable. Each person born on the world is heir to all the preceding generations. The whole world is ours by right of birth alone. Duties imposed as obligations or ideals, such as patriotism, duty to the State, worship of God, submission to higher classes or authorities, respect for inherited privileges, are lies"

I cannot think of a more "complete" definition of freedom. They use this definition of freedom to support the notion that any property is theft: "The fact that Mankind cannot enter into his/her natural inheritance means that part of it has been taken from him or her" (more complete argument available at the previously supplied link)
Those people do not have a rationally coherent understanding of property and I disagree with that statement.

I won't spend any more time debating what an article on a poor collection of theories says, only because I have explained clear as day, it does not represent my POV and I cannot be expected to defend or argue every article people find online and think is remotely relevant. I hope you understand this.

What is your definition of personal freedom?
The American Declaration of Independence verbatim, is acceptable enough as to be used as a proxy for my position.

How can things like roads that people use but are not tracked using be paid for if not through taxes (I am not saying taxes is the only way, but I am asking for an alternative)
There are private roads all over the world. Originally, almost all roads were built privately. Private roads operate more efficiently, with more safety, and a for a lower cost than government run roads. That's the market at work.

Do you understand why?

Finally. One of the faults I can find with the "really free" market you are a proponent of, that is to say a market that exists with no barriers to trade, is that the formation of local and distributed monopolies is, to my mind though I will argue it point by point if you disagree, a natural result.

How does a free market in a system with no regulation deal with monopolies and the dangers they pose to free market pricing.
Well, if you have zero barriers to entry, it is impossible to have a monopoly, unless the monopoly firm, is simply better than all possible competitors. The only way they can be the sole player in a market, is if no one else is willing or capable of competing with them, because they have the best price and quality.

With zero barrier to entry, if there is any profitability in competing, people will compete. Even if it is only a 1% profit margin, people will enter into competition.

Natural monopolies, generally are very rare because if there is ANY PROFIT to be had, then someone will attempt to gain a slice of the pie, if only through arbitrage.

Traditionally, the term "monopoly" was known to be a state granted exclusive market privilege. Such as "official supplier of rice to the king". Someone would lobby the King, to be the sole supplier in the region, and the King would outlaw competition in that product. Then the monopoly firm, being free from competitive forces, would jack up prices and give a damn about quality or accountability to a captive consumer audience.

You're still trying to justify regulation, which by definition, reduces competition, and hurts the poorest people the most because they do not have the startup capital, inherited or earned, to engage in their own non-wage slave productive labor.

The minimum wage for example, is legislation which creates unemployment. If the minimum wage could truly create a livable wage, then the government would raise it to $20 an hour to make everyone middle class.

But instead, it creates an artifical floor for labor prices, and doesn't allow the uneducated, old, infirm, retarded, etc to compete for jobs based upon their labor rate. If the minimum wage is $5, and a business owner could use some help, but can only afford to pay $4 in order for that work to be profitable, then he is prevented from seeking an employee.

This hurts business, and this hurts job seekers. What it does do, is protect high wage earners, by reducing the number of workers they have to compete with for their job. It also creates a need for government, because the high wage earners can be taxed to pay for the people who have been prevented from finding employment. It's a manufactured need for a welfare middle man. And socialists love to keep people poor, because otherwise they would run out of victim groups to serve as a middle man.

Similarly this is what unionism does. It protects 55 year old guys who make 2 times what a young hard working new union member makes, while doing half of the work and loafing on the same job they have been on for 20 years.

I'm not a proponent of "the really free market".

I am a proponent of liberty.

Any time you force other people to curtail their VOLUNTARY, PEACEFUL economic behavior through coercive force, you are fighting against liberty.
 
It's the foundation of classic liberalism as the french understood it.


Those people do not have a rationally coherent understanding of property and I disagree with that statement.

I won't spend any more time debating what an article on a poor collection of theories says, only because I have explained clear as day, it does not represent my POV and I cannot be expected to defend or argue every article people find online and think is remotely relevant. I hope you understand this.


The American Declaration of Independence verbatim, is acceptable enough as to be used as a proxy for my position.


There are private roads all over the world. Originally, almost all roads were built privately. Private roads operate more efficiently, with more safety, and a for a lower cost than government run roads. That's the market at work.

Do you understand why?


Well, if you have zero barriers to entry, it is impossible to have a monopoly, unless the monopoly firm, is simply better than all possible competitors. The only way they can be the sole player in a market, is if no one else is willing or capable of competing with them, because they have the best price and quality.

With zero barrier to entry, if there is any profitability in competing, people will compete. Even if it is only a 1% profit margin, people will enter into competition.

Natural monopolies, generally are very rare because if there is ANY PROFIT to be had, then someone will attempt to gain a slice of the pie, if only through arbitrage.

Traditionally, the term "monopoly" was known to be a state granted exclusive market privilege. Such as "official supplier of rice to the king". Someone would lobby the King, to be the sole supplier in the region, and the King would outlaw competition in that product. Then the monopoly firm, being free from competitive forces, would jack up prices and give a damn about quality or accountability to a captive consumer audience.

You're still trying to justify regulation, which by definition, reduces competition, and hurts the poorest people the most because they do not have the startup capital, inherited or earned, to engage in their own non-wage slave productive labor.

The minimum wage for example, is legislation which creates unemployment. If the minimum wage could truly create a livable wage, then the government would raise it to $20 an hour to make everyone middle class.

But instead, it creates an artifical floor for labor prices, and doesn't allow the uneducated, old, infirm, retarded, etc to compete for jobs based upon their labor rate. If the minimum wage is $5, and a business owner could use some help, but can only afford to pay $4 in order for that work to be profitable, then he is prevented from seeking an employee.

This hurts business, and this hurts job seekers. What it does do, is protect high wage earners, by reducing the number of workers they have to compete with for their job. It also creates a need for government, because the high wage earners can be taxed to pay for the people who have been prevented from finding employment. It's a manufactured need for a welfare middle man. And socialists love to keep people poor, because otherwise they would run out of victim groups to serve as a middle man.

Similarly this is what unionism does. It protects 55 year old guys who make 2 times what a young hard working new union member makes, while doing half of the work and loafing on the same job they have been on for 20 years.

I'm not a proponent of "the really free market".

I am a proponent of liberty.

Any time you force other people to curtail their VOLUNTARY, PEACEFUL economic behavior through coercive force, you are fighting against liberty.

Ok.... Good luck trying to employ logic Metacafe!
 
I love you


Of course you do, because you agree with him. However, it takes real intellectual courage to concede to LOGIC even when its conclusions are something we don't EMOTIONALLY agree with.....

I PERSONALLY prefer Capitalism over Socialism. However, that has nothing to do with logical arguments surrounding the latter's veracity vis-a-vis the former.

Then again who am I kidding? This probably doesn't mean much in your world...
 


There are counties that practice socialism that by definition are VIABLE.




there are people living in happiness and wealth in socialist systems....


Right after you deride Guerilla for making unsupported statements, you brazenly asserted the above without any type of supporting foundation whatsoever. Methinks someone should take a look in the mirror.

And by the way, for somebody who supposedly 'supports' capitalism, you sure put up a hell of a fuss over a minor point. Maybe lay off the caffeine for a while.
 
It's the foundation of classic liberalism as the french understood it.

Those people do not have a rationally coherent understanding of property and I disagree with that statement.

I won't spend any more time debating what an article on a poor collection of theories says, only because I have explained clear as day, it does not represent my POV and I cannot be expected to defend or argue every article people find online and think is remotely relevant. I hope you understand this.

The American Declaration of Independence verbatim, is acceptable enough as to be used as a proxy for my position.

I understand, not would I expect you to. The reason I bring up differing definitions of freedom is that I believe that to be the most complete definition of freedom that I have ever come across in that there is nothing more to add. Other definitions of freedom encompass less.

Isn't taking anything but the most complete definition of freedom as the basis for your position the same as if I were to use a definition of freedom that was even less encompassing. For example that excluded the right to free will for some portions of the citizenry.

The decision of what definition of freedom to use, causes this to become a discussion not of what is logical, but instead of what is right and just. Something that is based on opinion, not logic.

There are private roads all over the world. Originally, almost all roads were built privately. Private roads operate more efficiently, with more safety, and a for a lower cost than government run roads. That's the market at work.

Do you understand why?

I understand the principles of why it should be, but even the privately run roads in Australia are commissioned by the government. Without a government how would the choice be made to build a road, then acquire the land etc. Additionally, once a road is built the prices always, always, go up. Though the infrastructure investment is paid off, the price of using the road increases.

Well, if you have zero barriers to entry, it is impossible to have a monopoly, unless the monopoly firm, is simply better than all possible competitors. The only way they can be the sole player in a market, is if no one else is willing or capable of competing with them, because they have the best price and quality.

With zero barrier to entry, if there is any profitability in competing, people will compete. Even if it is only a 1% profit margin, people will enter into competition.

Zero barriers to entry is impossible. There are always things that are required to start a business. Monopolies can exist when the barrier to entry is too high.

If you are an apple carter, and you have all the business for the nearby farms you have a monopoly. Someone can purchase their own cart (a barrier to entry) overcome the locals high opinion of you (a barrier to entry) and their distrust of a new carter (a barrier to entry) and lower their prices relative to yours and they may take some of your business. But there are busineses where the barriers to entry are much higher, and these are natural barriers to entry, not ones caused by regulation, that are susceptible to monopolisation.

Natural monopolies, generally are very rare because if there is ANY PROFIT to be had, then someone will attempt to gain a slice of the pie, if only through arbitrage.

Traditionally, the term "monopoly" was known to be a state granted exclusive market privilege. Such as "official supplier of rice to the king". Someone would lobby the King, to be the sole supplier in the region, and the King would outlaw competition in that product. Then the monopoly firm, being free from competitive forces, would jack up prices and give a damn about quality or accountability to a captive consumer audience.

I do understand the history of monopolies, at least to the extent you are talking about them here.

You're still trying to justify regulation, which by definition, reduces competition, and hurts the poorest people the most because they do not have the startup capital, inherited or earned, to engage in their own non-wage slave productive labor.
I am trying to discuss the need for regulation and explore the alternatives.
The minimum wage for example, is ... an employee.
That is an example of a pieve of legislation that is bad, but it doesn't necessarily make true the premise that all regulation is bad. I am sure you can come up with many more examples of why, believe me I can too, so let's just agree that there are many examples of bad regulation/legislation.
This hurts business, and this hurts job seekers. What it does do, is protect high wage earners, by reducing the number of workers they have to compete with for their job. It also creates a need for government, because the high wage earners can be taxed to pay for the people who have been prevented from finding employment. It's a manufactured need for a welfare middle man. And socialists love to keep people poor, because otherwise they would run out of victim groups to serve as a middle man.

How does it protect high wage earners? The people you say this keeps out of the job market aren't competing for the same jobs? Unless you mean it is competing for their job dollars? That the money could be spent better on cheap labourers? I would say it actually harms most high wage earners, by increasing the cost of all goods and services as well as the increasing the amount their suppliers or themselves spend on labour.

Similarly this is what unionism does. It protects 55 year old guys who make 2 times what a young hard working new union member makes, while doing half of the work and loafing on the same job they have been on for 20 years.
Unionism blows, check.
I'm not a proponent of "the really free market".

I am a proponent of liberty.

Any time you force other people to curtail their VOLUNTARY, PEACEFUL economic behavior through coercive force, you are fighting against liberty.

What about when you force people to curtail their voluntary, aggressive economic behaviour, that is impinging on other people's rights, through coercive force.

If we take our apple carter from before, and he decides that the new competition is no good, and pays a gentleman down at the bar to kill him. What is to become of him with no regulations or legislations against paying someone to kill him. If the death example is too extreme, what if he were to pay someone to whisper nasty things about this new guy to his customers? I know I am bringing in a whole new kettle of fish here, but I remain intrigued by your position on these things.
 
I understand the principles of why it should be, but even the privately run roads in Australia are commissioned by the government. Without a government how would the choice be made to build a road, then acquire the land etc. Additionally, once a road is built the prices always, always, go up. Though the infrastructure investment is paid off, the price of using the road increases.
Because the government has created a monopoly. Where is the competition?

Zero barriers to entry is impossible. There are always things that are required to start a business. Monopolies can exist when the barrier to entry is too high.
But that is merely a natural monopoly, where the entry costs outweight the potential profit. It's simply smart business not to enter into a market if you cannot recoup your investment.

If the profit margin, or potential to steal clients based on service or product quality exists, then someone will enter.

If you are an apple carter, and you have all the business for the nearby farms you have a monopoly. Someone can purchase their own cart (a barrier to entry) overcome the locals high opinion of you (a barrier to entry) and their distrust of a new carter (a barrier to entry) and lower their prices relative to yours and they may take some of your business. But there are busineses where the barriers to entry are much higher, and these are natural barriers to entry, not ones caused by regulation, that are susceptible to monopolisation.
Man overcomes natural challenges with time. We overcome the infrastructure costs of telephone lines, by creating wireless transmission. We overcome the infrastructure costs of super-computing by refining the product over time. I fail to see how government can overcome a natural monopoly with regulation. A high barrier to entry, is always made easier to overcome if the potential for profit is big. If you have operated an offline business, you know that pricing is a delicate game between charging as much as the customer will pay, but not such an obscene amount that everyone notices you make money and starts to enter your market. That is the check on business. If they are too profitable, competition will enter, and lower prices again. That is a function of a market (competitive) economy. Agencies regulated by government have no competitors, and thus have no need to lower prices, become more efficient or increase service levels. Many times, if they operate poorly, they just get more free money from the state, changing their incentives from pleasing customers, to pleasing politicians.

This is actually a popular scam. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac make big campaign contributions, and in return, get bail outs. It's simply payola. Plain as day, out in the open, and no one bats an eye. The problem is, politicians are not handing out their own money. They are violating the public trust by taking kickbacks in campaign contributions for those bailouts. Obama got a TON of money from Wall Street, and he is just paying back.

I do understand the history of monopolies, at least to the extent you are talking about them here.
But you missed the state road monopoly above.

That is an example of a pieve of legislation that is bad, but it doesn't necessarily make true the premise that all regulation is bad. I am sure you can come up with many more examples of why, believe me I can too, so let's just agree that there are many examples of bad regulation/legislation.
All regulation is bad if it is enforced with coercion because people do not voluntarily want to go along with it.

How does it protect high wage earners? The people you say this keeps out of the job market aren't competing for the same jobs? Unless you mean it is competing for their job dollars? That the money could be spent better on cheap labourers? I would say it actually harms most high wage earners, by increasing the cost of all goods and services as well as the increasing the amount their suppliers or themselves spend on labour.
It protects high wage earners by limiting the pool of competitive workers. I might start off black and poor and uneducated and female and all sorts of government identified victim groups, but if I can get any work, and save some money, while gaining experience, I can move up. I can overcome the hand I have been dealt. I can gain skills, I can network, and I can accumulate capital.

High wage earners do not spring forth from the head of Zeus. But the system limits free competition and those who get through, are benefited by labor protectionism in the form of minimum wage legislation.

What about when you force people to curtail their voluntary, aggressive economic behaviour, that is impinging on other people's rights, through coercive force.
Coercion = Aggression. There can only be one aggressor. If you respond, that is self-defense.

If we take our apple carter from before, and he decides that the new competition is no good, and pays a gentleman down at the bar to kill him. What is to become of him with no regulations or legislations against paying someone to kill him. If the death example is too extreme, what if he were to pay someone to whisper nasty things about this new guy to his customers? I know I am bringing in a whole new kettle of fish here, but I remain intrigued by your position on these things.
Murder is wrong, it violates the individual's right to self-ownership.

Paying a propagandist is acceptable (what do you think Acai hucksters are?). Happens all the time. We don't own our reputations. Our reputations exist in the minds of others, and are owned individually.

We're going down the rabbit hole here. If you're curious about these views, I can suggest a forum to discuss them in. PM me for details. I do not have the time or resources to become an enduring tutor on these topics.

I do believe in government. If it respects thou shalt not kill (aggress) and thou shalt not steal. Modern government regularly defies both of these foundations of civilization.

I do not believe 51% of my neighbors can choose to confiscate my property for their own use as a legitimate system (democracy). Democracy does not mean the mob can choose what the law is on any given day, give and take away rights on any given day.

The role of government is to function outside the INALIENABLE rights of man. That includes life, liberty and property.

The role of government is to protect rights, not to violate them. Not to feed the poor, not to heal the sick, and not to bring democracy to the world.

Once we accept the premise that government can violate the rights of A to do something for or with B, we no longer have ANY permanent, inalienable rights under government. We're mere footsteps away from the authoritarian slavery.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.