Obama supports plan for mosque near ground zero

So, for those not in support of the Mosque, what legal basis do you suggest the government use to stop this? Do you really want the big bad federal government meddling in local zoning issues? And if you suggest it be handled at the local level, what NYC zoning statute do you suggest be used to prevent this?

If you can't answer those, I just think that you're actually supporting the government getting overly involved in private property rights. Expansion of the government's control of private property seems like a slippery slope.

Is it wise to do the Mosque/Islamic center there? Probably not. Is it legal? Yes. Does the government have a right to step in and stop it on any grounds not already defined in the law? No.
 


There's anti-mosque/Muslim protests all over the country...so where inside the US should they move it? Hell, there's protest against other mosques all over NYC. Do you mean move them abroad? What about the supposed freedom and liberties in the US, aren't those values important anymore?

The people upset because of this mosque are being blinded by misinformation in the MSM. The damn thing isn't even gonna be ON ground zero but 3 whole blocks away! Of course many people don't know that because the MSM report it as if the mosque is going to be built directly on top of ground zero.
 
nickycakes said:
No thanks. I'd rather not go to jail for publicly kissing my girl, or getting sent to prison for having a pot seed lodged in the tread of my shoe.
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Those were one off incidents - if they make news its because it is rare for things to escalate that far. The pot seed in that guy's shoe resulting in prison is wrong and should not have happened... but how many other bizarre court rulings have there been everywhere else (that doesn't make it right).

There are topless sunbathers every day at the Dubai beaches and very public affection between couples all over the place. I am not saying that the society is 100% tolerant of western behavior - and when you travel there you should be respectful of local values, but it's a lot more western than you would think.

Beirut has a huge gay scene that is rapidly growing.

Walking the streets of west Amman at night, you would think you are in NYC or any Euro city if you judged by how the girls are dressed.

My point is it's not black and white. There is a lot of westernization spreading the middle east and it is a great insight to see it first hand.
 
adigitalorange said:
You're kidding right? Have you not read about how this is an effort by the Imam to better their relations with the U.S.? Maybe they don't care what I personally think, but our nation as a whole you better believe some of them care. And I bet there is a shitload of Muslims right now are concerned that millions of people are angry at them for doing this.

To say some of the Muslim leaders of the world don't care what Americans think is just plain old ignorant, of course they do. It is called foreign relations.

And by not worth it means is it THAT important to build that mosque right there when it is a fact millions of people are pissed about it. Again is it right/wrong they are mad I don't know and again I don't care, but it would seem to me why not just move the thing instead of pissing millions off. If I was a Muslim PR dude that is exactly what I would be doing, and I think you'd be lying to yourself if you say you wouldn't, especially if trying to better your relations with the American people is one of your goals (as many of these leaders have said).
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I see your point and agree that the PR is really bad. The thing isn't actually on ground zero. It is a couple of blocks away if I am not mistaken. I feel like they made the judgment (or did not even think about it) that there would not be a controversy - obviously a miscalculation - and now they're mired in the debate and don't want to step back and be seen as acknowledging that a mosque should not be there. It was bad PR 100% agreed and probably is hurting their cause.
 
hellblazer said:
In other words, you don't care about those who lost loved ones on 9/11? Ladies and gentlemen, the face of liberalism right here.
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This mosque or every Muslim in the world has nothing to do with 9/11. That attack was done by a few bad apples, and those exist in every country/race. Remember the idiot who flew his plane into a government building earlier this year? He was Christian...does that make all Christians terrorists and should we oppose any church constructions because of that idiot?

The answer is obviously no...and in the same way, we can't just cut civil freedom and liberties and prohibit someone who hasn't done anything bad to build a house of worship that doesn't even affect anyone but Muslims. It's a building like any other for people who aren't criminals or terrorists. If a bank employee kills someone in cold blood, should we now prohibit building banks too?

And don't come with this "Islam is a violent religion" crap. It's only violent if you take it literally, and the Muslims I met don't do that. Of course they don't do that because it's an old book and times change, you can't take it literally in our modern times. Just like you can't stone people even though the bible tells you to do so if they act in a certain way. I'm not calling all Christians violent just because there's clearly violent parts in the bible...so what gives you the right to put all Muslims in one pot?
 
JohnShepherd said:
This mosque or every Muslim in the world has nothing to do with 9/11. That attack was done by a few bad apples, and those exist in every country/race. Remember the idiot who flew his plane into a government building earlier this year? He was Christian...does that make all Christians terrorists and should we oppose any church constructions because of that idiot?

The answer is obviously no...and in the same way, we can't just cut civil freedom and liberties and prohibit someone who hasn't done anything bad to build a house of worship that doesn't even affect anyone but Muslims. It's a building like any other for people who aren't criminals or terrorists. If a bank employee kills someone in cold blood, should we now prohibit building banks too?

And don't come with this "Islam is a violent religion" crap. It's only violent if you take it literally, and the Muslims I met don't do that. Of course they don't do that because it's an old book and times change, you can't take it literally in our modern times. Just like you can't stone people even though the bible tells you to do so if they act in a certain way. I'm not calling all Christians violent just because there's clearly violent parts in the bible...so what gives you the right to put all Muslims in one pot?
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Doesn't matter. Grief isn't always rational. The majority of the 9/11 families perceive it as offensive and we should respect their loss by honoring their wishes. The morally correct thing to do would be to acquiesce to their request.
 
But this doesn't even only concern this mosque...there's protests against a lot of mosques all over the country. It's not as if they can just move it somewhere else as even within NYC (Brooklyn, Staten Island, etc) they are facing opposition...and they're even facing it as far as California. By not building it, they are almost admitting guilt. And they are CERTAINLY not guilty of anything that's been done to the 9/11 victims.

If people are irrational, they should be educated. The mosque isn't even being built on ground zero but several blocks away. What's next? Should be outlaw all the mosques in NYC because some families of the 9/11 victims make an automatic connection to terrorism?

If they'd build a Christian church, no one would lose a word. Plus, a lot of Muslim victims died on 9/11 too...so what makes it more right to build a Christian church than an Islamic one?

If you were robbed by a black man, and then came to me saying that you'll never want anything around you that reminds you of black people...you'd be irrational and hopefully someone would point it out instead of ignoring it. Otherwise you're just supporting racism :(
 
adigitalorange said:
You know they still do that over there right?
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Not in all Muslim countries, and certainly not in the US. Also, the sentiment against this draconian punishment is changing relatively quickly. Iran had one of his Mullahs killed because the crowd wouldn't let him stone someone only a few months ago.

I'm not gonna argue the good/bad parts of Islam, because as long as they adapt when they come over here, it shouldn't be an issue. That doesn't mean we have the right to completely forbid them to pray and follow their religion. We have "freedom of religion" for a reason in this country...
 
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JohnShepherd said:
I'm not gonna argue the good/bad parts of Islam, because as long as they adapt when they come over here, it shouldn't be an issue. That doesn't mean we have the right to completely forbid them to pray and follow their religion. We have "freedom of religion" for a reason in this country...
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No shit, again nobody is forbidding them to practice their religion. Just telling them to move it down the fucking road.

And here is something that will make all you liberals here feel really fucking stupid:

POPE ORDERS NUNS OUT OF AUSCHWITZ - NYTimes.com

Look at that, the pope did something out of respect. You guys keep hating on Christianity, but just note the Pope could have VERY well not said anything and kept the nuns there, but he did it to not anger the Jews. Yeah sure he could have pulled the same bullshit half of you are saying "its their right blah fucking blah", but he knew some battles just aren't worth fighting, and he felt as if it would be good PR to just let it go, something that many of you OBVIOUSLY have NO concept of.
 
adigitalorange said:
No shit, again nobody is forbidding them to practice their religion. Just telling them to move it down the fucking road.
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They already "moved it down the road"...several blocks away from ground zero to be specific. ;)

How far is far enough for you? Judging from the people protesting mosques all over the country, probably nowhere...
 
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