gotta love truth. though i've noticed those most dedicated to their political cause aren't the slightest bit interested in truth, so its kind of a waste of time to point it out. sadly.
Obama and Jonathan Gruber On Healthcare
- Thread starter JakeStratham
- Start date
gotta love truth. though i've noticed those most dedicated to their political cause aren't the slightest bit interested in truth, so its kind of a waste of time to point it out. sadly.
Failed? If you define failed as "everybody gets health care no matter their age or income or insurance policy" then sure. Feel free to elaborate on how it has failed everywhere when almost everywhere has better health care than America, and Australia is one of only 4 countries with an average life expectancy of over 80 years. No surprise all of them have universal health care.
Feel free to show private is more efficient, better managed and cheaper lol. We have private and public systems side by side in Australia so it's easy to compare them.
Went to a local clinic last week for a wrist injury, saw a doctor within 15 minutes. No paperwork to do, no fees. Sent me for an x-ray, was in and out within 10 minutes, no paperwork and no fees there either. It couldn't possibly be any more efficient.
Gotta hate that reality huh.
Holy shit that made me laugh.
Concerning OP:
I'm depressed that anyone is shocked by this at all. I'm even more depressed that most of the debates surrounding this revelation amount to, "See? This is what happens when liberals run the country. FUCKING DEMOCRATS!" To which the opposing side responds, "What about poor people? You republicans are greedy, selfish, etc. Also, Bush was worse than Obama. TAKE THAT!"
Neither side realizes dishonesty, misdirection, exploitation, and myopic arrogance is systemic throughout the entire political edifice. Always was, always will be.
I swear, this is what the average American believes the government is:
- An occasionally misguided, but otherwise benevolent Guardian Angel who watches over the little people, ensuring civility and order are maintained.
- A magical institution that has the ability to grant people whichever wish they want for free. It often times doesn't, because {racism|sexism|evil capitalists|greedy corporations}.
- A highly imperfect, but necessary institution. It would work much better if we only elected GOOD & SMART people into the White House. Unfortunately, the stupid [insert opposing political party] wants to destroy this country, so they use the media to brainwash the masses into voting for them.
I slightly sympathize with the latter view. Unfortunately, none of these commonly shared intuitions about government take into account the insidious incentive mechanisms (or lack of useful incentive mechanisms) inherent within the institution itself.
Sources please.
I'd like to see how they were able to establish a solid causal link between long lifespans & universal health care systems.
What about culturally influenced dietary habits? I'd love to see this data.
....
I have nothing against good health, longer lifespans, or accessible healthcare.
What I'm against is someone forcing me to pay into something without my consent, regardless of its purported benefits.
You went to a clinic that is privately run and the fees were covered by medicare.
Try going to a public hospital, hope you like waiting for 6 hours only to be told to take a Panadol and fuck off.
BTW correlation is not causation.
I'm curious as to why you didn't pay any gap fees, care to elaborate?
Sources? Who the fuck needs sources when you're trying to make a spurious point.
Fuck facts, think of the children!!!!
BTW he's quoting this... herr durr
I don't want to get balls deep in this thread but bro come on. A solid causal link between long average life span and universal* health care within a given population? You need sources for that one?
*Universal means just that. Everyone haz it.
*Shamelessly biting JakeStratham's footnote tactics
Is there any data on the average IQ of the people who are allegedly living longer? Could it be possible that coercive medicine lets idiots/parasites live longer? And why would anyone want that?
BTW, stating that every other country has something is not much of argument. If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you do it? Sheople!
Freedom of choice is what you've got. Freedom from choice is what you want. - DEVO
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVGINIsLnqU"]Devo - Freedom Of Choice (Video) - YouTube[/ame]
BTW, stating that every other country has something is not much of argument. If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you do it? Sheople!
Freedom of choice is what you've got. Freedom from choice is what you want. - DEVO
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVGINIsLnqU"]Devo - Freedom Of Choice (Video) - YouTube[/ame]
How about Aborigine's?
You think you didn't pay for that x-ray?
And do you really believe that there's a "free market" healthcare system in existence?
What's it cost to become a doctor? Who has the monopoly to grant that license?
Why can't I choose a doctor based on education I deem qualified?
Why does the state seek power over every profitable industry in the world? You think that state run education, healthcare, security, etc etc is for your benefit?
You're hosting a parasite - and worshipping it for bleeding you dry. You work 50% of your life to benefit thieving murdering psychopaths - and you thank them for it.
If universal healthcare is so great, why isn't it voluntary? A good product doesn't require a gun to your head.
You mock An-cap ideas like they're something new.
It's been common sense since ~600BC as noted by the founder of Taoism and an acquaintance of Confucius....
The First Libertarian Intellectuals
They're not the one's putting a gun to your head, extorting you and forcing you to do their bidding. Yet you talk down on them while worshipping an institution who's only means of existence is compulsion and violence.
That's a twisted sense of ethics you've got going on. And if you think you can argue otherwise, that coercion and violence against innocent people trumps any individual's right to freedom, you're suffering from psychosis that I'm not going to even attempt to reason with.
You can love the state (any state) or you can love people. It's impossible to honestly say you love both. Enjoy your "free" healthcare - your kids will thank you someday.
There is anecdotal evidence that retards have lives with less stress due to a complete lack of understanding of the world around them, which in tern leads to a longer life.
Personally I'm in favor of universally adopting "smack an idiot"; where idiots are smacked in the head by random strangers when out in public.
This would induce the same level of stress that others have to endure when dealing with said fuckwits and lead to their live being significantly shorter.
It would also alleviate said stress from the "smacker" and therefor increase their life span.
It's a win win.
I have spent many months in 2 different public hospitals when my grandfather was being treated for late stage cancer and everything that comes with that. He was in for about 4 months total. Most of the time he had a private room to himself. The care he received was excellent, it couldn't have been any better. Total cost was zero. Your exaggeration of a public hospital emergency room is also way off, wait time is about an hour based on personal experience. It's not run by government agents trying to cut costs, it's run by real people with hearts.
I've also spent lots of time in a top private hospital where my dad was having bowel resection surgery for early stage cancer, notably found early thanks to a free poop test the state sent him once he reached a high risk age. The care was excellent there too, and the hospital had a much nicer interior, a Gloria Jeans downstairs, newspapers every day. He walked away with about $6000 in gap fees to pay, he was in there for a few weeks in total.
Private hospitals definitely look nicer, but the actual care is no better. Worth the thousands in gap fees? not really.
There are two different types of doctor clinics, a fully private clinic where you pay out of pocket, about $60. You then receive a roughly $35 cheque from Medicare, so there is a small gap.
The other type of clinic is known as a "bulk billing" clinic, the entire fee is covered by Medicare, you just give them your Medicare card and it's all taken care of. No money changes hands. That's the type I went to.
I've been to private doctors and entirely public doctors, again there's no difference in care. The only distinction is who pays the bill.
It doesn't cost anything upfront. You pay it back when you start working. Of course if it was a private education system then someone from a low income family has no chance of being a doctor.
You can choose any doctor you like unless you're admitted to an emergency room.
The free market does most things well, healthcare is not one of them. It's a rare exception.
I presume this comes down to paying taxes with "a gun to my head". That's your twisted way of perceiving the world. I perceive it as the fees I pay to earn money off the infrastructure and people of this country, they're quite fair. I'm free to go to another with no taxes if I want to, nobody is forcing me to stay here. That makes it voluntary.
Is the parasite you speak of a group of powerful men behind the government? politicians don't make big money. Is it a non-physical governmental consciousness, like a hive mind? It sounds like you're angry with the concept of government rather than any actual reality. Politicians aren't in it for the money, so who exactly is bleeding me dry?
The thieving murdering psychopaths, are they Jill and Bob from the Environmental Protection Authority making sure my drinking water doesn't have carcinogenic waste in it? Is it Jessica the policewoman that goes to my gym? Is she in on some big conspiracy? Be specific. It sounds like paranoid delusions.
My perception of government is my reality, your perception is your reality and both are true to ourselves. Out of the two of us it sounds like I'm in the happier situation because you're going to spend your entire life with this anger and hatred of government. It can't be good for you.
If I'm a psychopath then you're schizophrenic...
Medicare would still bill you even at a bulk billing doctor, unless you're under the income level to meet that requirement.
Bulk billing doesn't make shit free, unless the above, it only means the government takes care of handling the collection of money.
Got to love Australia with it's "ya don't like it? well fuck off then ya cunt! no one is forcing ya to be 'ere" attitude.
I don't think healthcare has existed in anything even remotely resembling a "free market" for quite some time.
So when I see people enthusiastically advocating universal healthcare as a better alternative to the semi-private one we have now, I think they may have a severe case of tunnel vision. I say this because:
- Although universal healthcare may have some desirable features, it seriously infringes upon individual freedom by coercing people into relinquishing the fruits of their labor (money), severely limiting their healthcare choices, and preventing some individuals from offering their own services (aka basic economic freedom).
- Before settling on a course of action that so severely infringes on human freedom, you MUST be absolutely positive the ends are important enough to justify the means. But before you even get to that stage, you have to also be absolutely positive no other viable alternatives exist.
- UHC advocates blithely assume no other viable alternatives exist besides universal healthcare, or that accessible healthcare even warrants the coercion necessary to bring it about.
So I suggest you research other possible alternatives to accessible healthcare before advocating the most violent, rights-violating option available.
It's not a twisted way of perceiving the world at all. It's actually pretty rational when you REALLY think about it.
If a private individual or private organization were to FORCE you to pay for their services (by threatening violence), what would you think of that person or organization? Would anyone consider that behavior even remotely ethical?
No. Probably not.
So then, why are your intuitions different when it comes to government? Are governments magical? You yourself admit they are run by ordinary human beings. Why can they - with a swipe of a pen - FORCE you to pay for something when any other decent human beings cannot?
...
Now I see where you're coming from - you gladly pay for defense, roads, basic infrastructure, etc. I think most people would happily pay for these things if given the choice.
However, just because you happily pay for these things now doesn't justify the violent imprisonment that awaits you should you change your mind in the future.
If I provide you with a service you need without your consent, but threaten to throw you in a cage if you fail to pay (and kill you if you defend yourself), is that morally justified behavior? You would have probably accepted my service had I asked you beforehand. But does the likelihood of your consent now give me the right to
1) Provide you with something you never explicitly asked for.
2) Expect material reciprocation for said service.
3) Threaten you with imprisonment should you refuse to pay, and death should you attempt to defend yourself when I try to put you in prison.
What kind of fucked up contract is that?
LOL. Do you have any idea of the level of ruthlessness it takes to reach a significant level of power in government?
Corruption and kickbacks are public knowledge. The AWB scandal, countless others and the backdoor deals happening daily that are never discovered by the general public.
Your EPA, like ours, exists for the profit of special interests and to shutout competition.
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How many lives and families has Jessica destroyed for non-violent and victimless crimes? No, not a conspiracy, she's a slave on a power trip and has no moral issues with interfering with and destroying other people's lives.
I don't harbor any hatred or anger. I accept reality and I couldn't be happier. But I value on freedom and human life. Governments (all) are the biggest enemy to both.
I rarely think about government at all - much more important things to pay attention to. But occasionally I'll chime in, promote individual freedom and maybe make someone reconsider what a government really is and what they do.
Their only tool is violence. It's not hard to see they're not a benevolent lover of humanity and exist to serve mankind - although it's easy to see why it's so important to trick people into believing that.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
~Alexis de Tocqueville
~Alexis de Tocqueville