New World Order

Somalia has done far better without a central government than with. However, it is not "anarchy". It is statelessness. True anarchy would be a system of voluntary relations. Like exists between the free countries of Europe (prior to formation of the EU). Somalia is simply between governments of local warlords or UN warlords.

Is that no different from the "protection agencies" (basically insurance agencies that protect people and arbitrate contracts and disagreements) anarchism wants?

The warlords are effectively the "protection agencies" theorized by anarcho-capitalist writers. Their purpose and role is functionally no different, that is, to collect a fee in return for protection and to arbitrate disagreements.

In other words, the true reality of anarchism = gangs and constant civil war. Along with minimal economic development! Compare stateless somalia to bostwana and gabon, two examples african countries with states and prosperous economies! I hardly call it even a fair comparison. Somalia is still at the bottom of most indicators even in Africa lol.

And don't cite human history as proof of your theory. Modern society functions much differently from small roving bands of hunter gatherers. Theres alot more at stake (property, capital etc) that simply did'nt exist in those times. A central, constitutional government provides the framework where those rights and claims on property can be consistently protected.

And how will laws be decided upon with no central authority? What is "right" and what is "wrong" according to whom? Will protection agency "A" take heed of the "laws" of protection agency "B" in a dispute or just make up their own as they go?

Anarchism is just utopian nonsense that ivory tower, arm chair intellectuals work on in their copious spare time. I want to see this theory actually tested in real life, under the so-called circumstances that make it possible according to anarcho-capitalists. A minarchist system is the only functional and proper way to set up a capitalistic society. Early America is more or less proof of this. It has minimal government interference and maximum protection of property, which is the original purpose of government in the first place.
 


Thanks to Guerilla's input I'm actually starting to think that unregulated capitalism might work.

However from what I can see there seem to be three major hurdles:

1. How to create a free market when many of the major players have competitive advantages gained from abuse of current regulatory systems.

2. The global nature of trade. Anarchy in the US would not produce a free market whilst regulation existed elsewhere. It appears it would need either global anarchy or (a minimal) one world government to achieve this.

3. Human nature. Are concepts such as ownership and the desire for growth innate or learned? Capitalism theory depends upon there concepts which seem to be more a product of nurture than nature.
 
People who are starting to think this anarcho-capitalism based on a fundamentalist version of the Austrian school might actually be a good idea, here's a few of the problems it presents just from an economic perspective. LazyHippie just suggested others and I'll around to a few more from a geopolitical perspective, but here's a start.


The Austrian School Deception : Austerity , Economic Snake Oil and Genocide


Definitely do NOT agree with what he is saying 100%, but some excellent points are raised. Certainly don't agree with his Tarpley/LaRouche nonsense either. In fact that forum is populated by the lowest forms of conspiracy theory fucktards, which made me hesitant to even link to it.. but then, so is this thread. But fuck it, just read it, this thread sorely needs more perspective outside Austrian School droning.
 
People who are starting to think this anarcho-capitalism based on a fundamentalist version of the Austrian school might actually be a good idea, here's a few of the problems it presents just from an economic perspective. LazyHippie just suggested others and I'll around to a few more from a geopolitical perspective, but here's a start.


The Austrian School Deception : Austerity , Economic Snake Oil and Genocide


Definitely do NOT agree with what he is saying 100%, but some excellent points are raised. Certainly don't agree with his Tarpley/LaRouche nonsense either. In fact that forum is populated by the lowest forms of conspiracy theory fucktards, which made me hesitant to even link to it.. but then, so is this thread. But fuck it, just read it, this thread sorely needs more perspective outside Austrian School droning.

This is the point at which I stopped reading:

Upon looking at this definition you can clearly see that "Expanding" the monetary supply "Slightly" each year for growth is essentially putting a CAP on economic expansion, and hence Living Standards and Population Levels.
 
This is the point at which I stopped reading:


Isn't the writer is using that statement to illustrate the absurdity of the belief system presented in the previous paragraph? He is not actually saying that is the case... hence the next paragraph that starts with "Contrary to these foolish myths". He is debating the definitions of what inflation and currency/money mean, as put forth by the Austrian school.
 
(Perhaps) Against my better judgment, will fire off some responses to this thread so I can get back to work this week.

People who are starting to think this anarcho-capitalism based on a fundamentalist version of the Austrian school might actually be a good idea, here's a few of the problems it presents just from an economic perspective. LazyHippie just suggested others and I'll around to a few more from a geopolitical perspective, but here's a start.


The Austrian School Deception : Austerity , Economic Snake Oil and Genocide
This appears to be all strawmen. In a quick scan of it, I didn't actually see any reference to the actual Austrians or their positions.

Also, the author seems to be sympathetic to LaRouchism and Georgism, both of which are based on the labor theory of value. Which as explained up thread, is a fundamental premise, and an incorrect one.

But fuck it, just read it, this thread sorely needs more perspective outside Austrian School droning.
Then bring another perspective which you can understand and debate. Just randomly sourcing people from the internet, when you don't understand the position you are sourcing or critiquing is a big waste of everyone's time.
 
Thanks to Guerilla's input I'm actually starting to think that unregulated capitalism might work.
Success! Not that you agree with me or not, but that you're willing to look at another point of view and consider it thoughtfully.

THowever from what I can see there seem to be three major hurdles:

1. How to create a free market when many of the major players have competitive advantages gained from abuse of current regulatory systems.

2. The global nature of trade. Anarchy in the US would not produce a free market whilst regulation existed elsewhere. It appears it would need either global anarchy or (a minimal) one world government to achieve this.

3. Human nature. Are concepts such as ownership and the desire for growth innate or learned? Capitalism theory depends upon there concepts which seem to be more a product of nurture than nature.
My thoughts real quick.

1. Anarchism is not perfection. It's not always possible to correct for the past. The notion is to stop further injustice by introducing competition.

2. A one world government is not a solution towards freedom. As the size of the government grows, it becomes harder for an individual actor to have his freedom because he is a smaller constituent piece of the larger decision making body.

3. There are theories, going back to Artistotle that property is innate. Human nature is tricky, because it seeks to collectivize the human experience, but we know that there is a lot of diversity in action and intention.

Some want to have straight sex, some want to have gay sex, some want to have sex with both, some want to have sex with neither. Which is human nature?

Mises' theories on human action start with one axiom (premise). Man acts. That even by not acting, man is choosing an action. And therefor man is a purposeful creature. The next idea Mises advanced from this, is that man acts towards his own satisfaction or improvement of his condition. But everyone defines satisfaction and improvement differently, so it is impossible to say what all people would do with $100, or what they would choose to eat from the fast food value menu. Sure, statistically there can be trends, but they are never 100% accurate, and so human nature (as a set of values) can't be defined with certainty. And as soon as you start basing ideas off a majority, that's not anarchism anymore. That's democracy.
 
First of all, I'm just glad I agree with pretty much everything Guerilla posts because it would suck to try to get the best of him in a debate.

Now, as far as all of our wild ideas about the men behind the curtains and what should and shouldn't be done and all that...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sm2V_JxC4&fmt=18]YouTube - Bad Religion - No Control lyrics[/ame]
 
Is that no different from the "protection agencies" (basically insurance agencies that protect people and arbitrate contracts and disagreements) anarchism wants?
Anarchism doesn't "want" anything. You're missing the entire point. Under anarchism, people can choose what they want freely. Some people might choose to hire police services, some may choose to defend themselves. Some may choose pacifism. It is their individual choice.

The warlords are effectively the "protection agencies" theorized by anarcho-capitalist writers. Their purpose and role is functionally no different, that is, to collect a fee in return for protection and to arbitrate disagreements.
Right, but there isn't a monopoly arbiter, so there is competition between arbiters, and thus more accountability to the consumer. You're also appealing to ancap writers but that has me at a disadvantage, because not all ancaps are the same. Can you name them specifically please?

In other words, the true reality of anarchism = gangs and constant civil war.
This is a strawman. And a non sequitur.

Along with minimal economic development!
So you're saying that a state is necessary for economic development? Why did the Soviet Union and East Germany collapse then?

Compare stateless somalia to bostwana and gabon, two examples african countries with states and prosperous economies! I hardly call it even a fair comparison. Somalia is still at the bottom of most indicators even in Africa lol.
Somalia is not ancap. It is stateless. You're calling an turkey an eagle, and then criticizing it for being flightless.

And don't cite human history as proof of your theory.
Why not? I agree, it is less than perfect, but you have cited history numerous times in your post. Has our turkey become too good for goose and gander?

Modern society functions much differently from small roving bands of hunter gatherers. Theres alot more at stake (property, capital etc) that simply did'nt exist in those times.
Ancap is not anarcho-primitivism.

Theres alot more at stake (property, capital etc) that simply did'nt exist in those times.
You haven't explained why this is an issue for ancap.

A central, constitutional government provides the framework where those rights and claims on property can be consistently protected.
It provides one framework, however it cannot fulfill its purpose because in order to have a monopoly arbiter, you have to violate the property rights of anyone who wants to operate outside the monopoly. So from the beginning, it is not a logically consistent idea. Also, you're arguing by assertion. I can make claims too. The point is to provide a foundation for their truthfulness, otherwise we can spend all day casting our positions back and forth and the discussion can't advance.

And how will laws be decided upon with no central authority? What is "right" and what is "wrong" according to whom? Will protection agency "A" take heed of the "laws" of protection agency "B" in a dispute or just make up their own as they go?
Common law and merchant law both emerged in the marketplace (without the state), just as the earliest forms of money did. Nearly everything (including the state) emerges from the market (voluntary consent) and then changes into something involuntary. Law emerges from contracts and convention. If you want a source to read on this, look up the essay, "The Myth of the Rule of Law".

As to how they will figure out disputes, how does Portugal and Japan figure out their disputes? How does China and India figure out their border disputes? Those states are all in a state of anarchy with one another. Neither is sovereign over the other one. And yet they find, through negotiation and diplomacy, peaceful ways to coexist and cooperate. is it perfect? Of course not. Sometimes there is violence. But I would argue, a lot more anarchic disputes are handled peacefully than with violence.

Anarchism is just utopian nonsense that ivory tower, arm chair intellectuals work on in their copious spare time.
Assertion. Insult. Strawman. Sloppy.

I want to see this theory actually tested in real life, under the so-called circumstances that make it possible according to anarcho-capitalists.
Happens all around you, if you can recognize it.

A minarchist system is the only functional and proper way to set up a capitalistic society.
Assertion. Why?

Early America is more or less proof of this. It has minimal government interference and maximum protection of property, which is the original purpose of government in the first place.
The reason why monopoly states don't work in the long run (not some idealized notion of the past that is more fiction than reality) is that they are the sole judge of what their constitutional limit is. Who decides what the government can and cannot do?

The government.

If you are in government and you want more power, what way will you decide to interpret the laws?

I would say, you would be inclined (and empowered) to expand the power of the government for your benefit.

That's based on the premise of Lord Acton, that

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."



Footnotes,

1. The Soviet Union had a constitution as well.

2. You should read Lysander Spooner's No Treason. He explains why a Constitution has no legal authority as a social contract.
 
The economic problems of anarcho-capitalism aside, a far bigger issue is its isolationist foreign policy (particularly as Rothbard puts it forwards, but even Ron Paul's non-interventionism). Most successful empires emerged out of the need to protect trade (unless of course you an history imbecile and believe conspiracies create empires) . Globalisation only tightens the relationship between economic power and political and military power.
I'm confused by this. Neither Rothbard nor Paul were/are for isolationism. That's just a term used to strawman their position as regressive. Like repeating that Ron Paul is for a gold standard (which is also false, he is for a market decided commodity standard which could be bi-metal, tri-metal, fish hooks or bacon fat).

Isolationism is economic and social withdrawal. Rothbard and Paul are for trade, diplomacy, travel etc. They are even for fighting in self-defense. They are just not for aggression.

Successful empires is the key here. All empires fall when their aggression over extends their economic power. So economically (and I would argue morally) what empires due to justify and perpetuate themselves, is futile and counterproductive in the long run.

Globalization actually diminishes military power and increases economic power. It's no coincidence that the largest military spender is the most indebted nation in the history of the world. As Paul does (and Rothbard would) argue, the cost of militarism is bankruptcy.
 
However, all of the advances we've seen in recent years have happened under a regulated system...
That's an observation, and a somewhat obvious one, but I'm not sure it is a conclusion.

Are you happy with how things have occurred under a regulated system?
 
For the record, none of my campaigns were fraudulent. The terms were there for the reading and everything was legal - maybe not ethical, but that's a little subjective. Caveat Emptor and all that.
That's good, because I didn't really believe you are someone who argues for morality but has low moral character.

But that is my whole point about regulation, and the human nature argument. It's not about you or me, but about humanity in general.
So you and I are not in humanity in general? That's the danger of painting with too broad a stroke. We end up painting ourselves out of the picture.

If you think all people will behave ethically, then you wouldn't need regulation.
Indeed. Following that up, there is a libertarian quote, I don't know the source but it basically goes like this.

If men were angels, you would not need to empower some men over others.

If men were devils, you would not dare empower some men over others.




I was looking for a place to drop this, since this is my second last reply today, it is as good a place as any.

In the 20th century, 34 million people were killed in armed conflict.

260 million people were killed by their own governments.

Food for thought.

My entire argument about why capitalism needs regulation is because when greed gets involved many people do not behave in an ethical manner. I watched the video (all of them actually), but none of them address this one very simple reason why capitalism needs some regulation.
Thanks for watching the videos. I appreciate that you made the effort.

Regulation cannot correct unethical behavior. That was a fallacy of Marxism/progressive leftism. That people can be perfected. That's why I dislike the claims of Utopianism. I know that people can't be perfected and we will always have scoundrels and dirt bags. Giving them a competitive advantage with regulation (which I believe the videos make very clear is what happens) is a way of protecting them from the competitive forces, the market forces the little guy can use to bring them to justice.

That's the whole point of my argument, and until you can ensure that humans will all of a sudden start behaving in an ethical manner where greed is involved, then there is no way that capitalism can exist without any regulations.
Capitalism as it is, can only exist efficiently without external regulations. The market can and should regulate through the profit and loss mechanism and the enforcement of property rights. But arbitrary licensing and antitrust only diminishes competition, which are the market forces which bring people like Bernie Madoff down when the SEC ignores all of the complaints filed for years against his ponzi scheme.

Remember, the smartest and best don't end up working as regulators. The job doesn't pay well. The SEC couldn't figure out what Madoff was doing even when they were told by numerous investment professionals. They were the dumbest guys in the room, trying to run the whole industry. This is typical of how all regulation is conducted. And it is usually written and implemented ex post facto. They have sovereign immunity as part of the state, so you can't (as an individual) sue a government agency for failing to regulate properly. That's another layer of protection for Corporatists when regulation "fails". Zero accountability.

In the old days before the FED, banks would be run on and bankrupted if they counterfeited. Deposit insurance and the discount window (short term FED loans) made it almost impossible for banks to be run on by the depositors. So the banks have no incentive to be responsible, because they are not accountable to the depositor, they are accountable to the FED, who will always bail them out. The FED is THE regulator of the banking industry. What good do they do? Mises believed that the artificial expansion of money and credit by the FED was one of the most devastating things you could do to an economy and freedom.

I think between you and I, we better understand the others position even if we are not in perfect agreement, and on a Monday morning, that is probably as good as we could expect.
 
I'm confused by this. Neither Rothbard nor Paul were/are for isolationism. That's just a term used to strawman their position as regressive.

You're continually redefining terms and using circular arguments (the latter not in this instance, I'll get to that later), as well shouting 'strawman' at any opposing position and the above is a perfect example.

Here's Rothbard answering a question:

Q: Why, in your view, is isolationism an essential tenet of libertarian foreign policy?

A: The libertarian position, generally, is to minimize State power as much as possible, down to zero, and isolationism is the full expression in foreign affairs of the domestic objective of whittling down State power. In other words, interventionism is the opposite of isolationism, and of course it goes on up to war, as the aggrandizement of State power crosses national boundaries into other States, pushing other people around etc. So this is the foreign counterpart of the domestic aggression against the internal population. I see the two as united.

The responsibility of trying to limit or abolish foreign intervention is avoided by many conservative libertarians in that they are very, very concerned with things like price control – of course I agree with them. They are very, very concerned about eliminating taxes, licensing, and so forth – with which I agree – but somehow when it comes to foreign policy there’s a black out. The libertarian position against the State, the hostility toward expanding government intervention and so forth, goes by the board – all of a sudden you hear those same people who are worried about government intervention in the steel industry cheering every American act of mass murder in Vietnam or bombing or pushing around people all over the world.

This shows, for one thing, that the powers of the State apparatus to bamboozle the public work better in foreign affairs than in domestic. In foreign affairs you still have this mystique that the nation-State is protecting you from a bogeyman on the other side of the mountain. There are "bad" guys out there out trying to conquer the world and "our" guys are in there trying to protect us. So not only is isolationism the logical corollary of libertarianism, which many libertarians don’t put into practice; in addition, as Randolph Bourne says, "war is the health of the State."

Rothbard on War

more later, need sleep
 
Last one.

Guerrila, when you're back, can you answer the following for me, to save time in clarifying your position.

Which of the following is your position/view closest to:

the Chicago School, Hayek, Mises, Lachman, Paul, Rothbard

Across the board, not just no economics. ie foreign policy and, secondarily, social issues.
It's not simple.

I'm not influenced by the Chicago school, but I am influenced by Liberalism (Classic liberalism), Stoicism, Austrianism, Objectivism (Randism), libertarianism, anarchism and the enlightenment thinkers.

Hayek was great on epistemology.
Rothbard was great on anarchism.
Paul is very good on money and government.

Mises is my hero (and Ron Paul's) simply because he is one of the most amazing social thinkers of the 20th century. The Nazis hated his ideas about liberalism so much, they burnt his library when he fled from Austria (he was a Jew).

I'm also a fan of Milton Friedman's son, David and his grandson Patri.

I like Nassim Taleb too.

I'm constantly reading new things so it's not easy to say, "Oh this guy has X's position". I try to understand their ideas, not to copy them.
 
You're continually redefining terms and using circular arguments (the latter not in this instance, I'll get to that later), as well shouting 'strawman' at any opposing position and the above is a perfect example.
It is a strawman.

Isolationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rothbard and Paul are for #1, but not #2.

When half of the definition does not apply, I think it is not valid.

Here's Rothbard answering a question:

Rothbard on War

more later, need sleep
Right, the author frames his position as isolationism, and Rothbard (as he tended to do, to my dismay at times) played along. If you read Rothbard's writings, I can't recall any time where he labeled his own position isolationism. For matters of convenience, he may have, but I have read a lot of Rothbard and cannot recall it.

Don't assume a sin of omission is a sin of commission.

This is precisely why your question about who I follow in all things was misguided at best.
 
The reason the 'author' asked Rothbard about 'isolationism' is because Rothbard refers to it extensively in his Libertarian Manifesto. The Protectionism clause in your wikipedia article is not what I had in mind either, I am referring to foreign policy only, as Rothbard did.

Either way, I don't care what terms we use, here's an example of the 'isolatonism' as termed by Rothbard, that I have a problem with:

Here's Rothbard in the Manifesto:

Political "isolationism" and peaceful coexistence — refraining from acting upon other countries — is, then, the libertarian counterpart to agitating for laissez-faire policies at home. The idea is to shackle government from acting abroad just as we try to shackle government at home.

[..]

A Foreign Policy Program

To conclude our discussion, the primary plank of a libertarian foreign policy program for America must be to call upon the United States to abandon its policy of global interventionism: to withdraw immediately and completely, militarily and politically, from Asia, Europe, Latin America, the Middle East, from everywhere. The cry among American libertarians should be for the United States to withdraw now, in every way that involves the U.S. government. The United States should dismantle its bases, withdraw its troops, stop its incessant political meddling, and abolish the CIA. It should also end all foreign aid — which is simply a device to coerce the American taxpayer into subsidizing American exports and favored foreign States, all in the name of "helping the starving peoples of the world." In short, the United States government should withdraw totally to within its own boundaries and maintain a policy of strict political "isolation" or neutrality everywhere.

The spirit of this ultra-"isolationist," libertarian foreign policy was expressed during the 1930s by retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley D. Butler. In the fall of 1936, General Butler proposed a now-forgotten constitutional amendment, an amendment which would delight libertarian hearts if it were once again to be taken seriously. Here is Butler's proposed constitutional amendment in its entirety:

1. The removal of members of the land armed forces from within the continental limits of the United States and the Panama Canal Zone for any cause whatsoever is hereby prohibited.

2. The vessels of the United States Navy, or of the other branches of the armed service, are hereby prohibited from steaming, for any reason whatsoever except on an errand of mercy, more than five hundred miles from our coast. [p. 292]

3. Aircraft of the Army, Navy and Marine Corps is hereby prohibited from flying, for any reason whatsoever, more than seven hundred and fifty miles beyond the coast of the United States.20
Disarmament

Strict isolationism and neutrality, then, is the first plank of a libertarian foreign policy, in addition to recognizing the chief responsibility of the American State for the Cold War and for its entry into all the other conflicts of this century. Given isolation, however, what sort of arms policy should the United States pursue? Many of the original isolationists also advocated a policy of "arming to the teeth"; but such a program, in a nuclear age, continues the grave risk of global holocaust, a mightily armed State, and the enormous waste and distortions that unproductive government spending imposes on the economy.

Even from a purely military point of view, the United States and the Soviet Union have the power to annihilate each other many times over; and the United States could easily preserve all of its nuclear retaliatory power by scrapping every armament except Polaris submarines, which are invulnerable and armed with nuclear missiles with multi-targeted warheads. Bur for the libertarian, or indeed for anyone worried about massive nuclear destruction of human life, even disarming down to Polaris submarines is hardly a satisfactory settlement. World peace would continue to rest on a shaky "balance of terror," a balance that could always be upset by accident or by the actions of madmen in power. No; for anyone to become secure from the nuclear menace it is vital to achieve worldwide nuclear disarmament, a disarmament toward which the SALT agreement of 1972 and the SALT II negotiations are only a very hesitant beginning.

Since it is in the interest of all people, and even of all State rulers, not to be annihilated in a nuclear holocaust, this mutual self-interest provides a firm, rational basis for agreeing upon and carrying out a policy of joint and worldwide "general and complete disarmament" of nuclear and other modern weapons of mass destruction. Such joint disarmament has been feasible ever since the Soviet Union accepted Western proposals to this effect on May 10, 1955 — an acceptance which only gained a total and panicky Western abandonment of their own proposals!

For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto - Murray N. Rothbard
 
The reason the 'author' asked Rothbard about 'isolationism' is because Rothbard refers to it extensively in his Libertarian Manifesto.
Ok, I didn't realize we were talking about FANL, I never refer people to read that. It's a political manifesto and at times inconsistent with what Rothbard advocated as an ancap. Which is why I send people to read Ethics of Liberty, and pretend that Rothbard's alliances with the New Left, the Libertarian Party and Pat Buchanan never happened.

The Protectionism clause in your wikipedia article is not what I had in mind either, I am referring to foreign policy only, as Rothbard did.
Then this is an issue with definition. I still dispute that it is isolationist not to invade or occupy other countries, but now I understood more clearly what you meant. Unfortunately in empires foreign policy has come to mean military policy, not diplomacy and trade as well.

Either way, I don't care what terms we use, here's an example of the 'isolatonism' as termed by Rothbard, that I have a problem with:

Here's Rothbard in the Manifesto:

For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto - Murray N. Rothbard
I have a problem with the whole thing. I never liked Rothbard for his political activism. I thought it was an enormous waste of time. I also never liked his positions on advocating for policy reforms. The political system itself is the problem. The incentives are not geared towards peace and prosperity. Rothbard knew better, but he wrote things like this to appeal to minarchist audiences.

This is why I could not pin down one person who is a model for my positions. Rothbard is great in EOL, but not so great in FANL.

I really don't want to debate militarism or foreign policy. I think it is a dead end for a consistent libertarian. Libertarians are for peace and markets. Foreign policy is based on the monopoly conception of the state. A sort of artificial macro actor which is supposedly the sum of its constituent parts. (note, the Obama foreign policy does not represent Hellblazer ;) )
 
@slayerment

i agree with you. nice explanation. you must have really scored an A in your history. good luck.