Martin Grunin - Facebook Ads Fraud - Bank Fraud - mgrunin

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poopie said:
Thanks, counselor. Wire fraud is Federal. It's not some local ADA handling it. The bar is higher and takes a lot longer.
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No problem, smart ass. You're a smart guy and appear to know a lot about finance and investing and all that - much respect where it's due. But you're fucking wrong, so just deal with it. No law enforcement agency (yes, that includes federal) is going to wait to see if there are civil procedings before deciding whether to file criminal charges in every case. Or in most cases for that matter. If they think there is a crime they'll investigate and file charges if they have enough evidence to. Period.
 


Unarmed Gunman said:
But you're fucking wrong, so just deal with it. No law enforcement agency (yes, that includes federal) is going to wait to see if there are civil procedings before deciding whether to file criminal charges in every case. Or in most cases for that matter. If they think there is a crime they'll investigate and file charges if they have enough evidence to. Period.
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Actually a lot of cases involving commercial crime, typically have the victim file a civil lawsuit first before criminal charges are pressed. I don't think you really understand how complex white collar crime cases can be. It may be very difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Fortunately this isn't the case with Martin Grunin's scheme, so I am very hopeful for a vigorous criminal prosecution to discourage other people from copying his business model.

"Waiting and seeing" is something federal law enforcement do a lot actually.

It sounds like you watch too much law and order.
 
goldenmember said:
Pretty amazing, makes one wonder what other activity he has resumed. Low profile just isn't in the boy's vocabulary.
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I wish Martin would come in here and make a public comment. Martin you know we'd all have a blast (including you) if you came here and made a comment. Hell even if you wanna talk about trading, I am sure we would all appreciate it.
 
Regarding the discussion between civil and criminal fraud cases I believe the primary concept which applies is Burden of Proof.

Civil cases [torts] only require a preponderance of the evidence for a plaintiff to be successful.

Criminal cases the burden of proof rests solely with the Prosecution [Federal or State depending on jurisdiction] to proof quilt beyond a reasonable doubt, The defendant is considered innocent until proven guilty. Much more difficult to convict.

I don't think it is a function of the chicken or the egg, just depends on how solid the case is before criminal charges may be prosecuted.
 
Unarmed Gunman said:
No problem, smart ass. You're a smart guy and appear to know a lot about finance and investing and all that - much respect where it's due. But you're fucking wrong, so just deal with it. No law enforcement agency (yes, that includes federal) is going to wait to see if there are civil procedings before deciding whether to file criminal charges in every case. Or in most cases for that matter. If they think there is a crime they'll investigate and file charges if they have enough evidence to. Period.
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I think in this case the feds weren't aware of the fraud before Facebook alerted them to it. In that instance it would make a lot of sense that Facebook would pursue this civilly before a criminal charge occurred.
 
goldenmember said:
Criminal cases the burden of proof rests solely with the Prosecution [Federal or State depending on jurisdiction] to proof quilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Should we start taking bets on this? My guess is he's quilty, and will end up getting criminally charged. Facebook doesn't drop this amount of time and money into someone over just a hunch. The Perkins Cole lawyers probably have an 8 inch thick file of evidence, ready to hand over to a DA, if they haven't handed it over already.
 
bluechinagroup said:
Actually a lot of cases involving commercial crime, typically have the victim file a civil lawsuit first before criminal charges are pressed. I don't think you really understand how complex white collar crime cases can be. It may be very difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Fortunately this isn't the case with Martin Grunin's scheme, so I am very hopeful for a vigorous criminal prosecution to discourage other people from copying his business model.

"Waiting and seeing" is something federal law enforcement do a lot actually.
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No I think you're not understanding that civil and criminal are two completely different things and criminal guilt has nothing to do with civil guilt and no bearing on it. It's a lot harder to prove criminal guilt so law enforcement will investigate and either press charges or not - they don't fucking wait on a civil case to be brought. Either they have enough evidence to charge or they don't. The investigation can take hours or years - but in either case it is completely independent of civil action.

cardine said:
I think in this case the feds weren't aware of the fraud before Facebook alerted them to it. In that instance it would make a lot of sense that Facebook would pursue this civilly before a criminal charge occurred.
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That's almost always the case with any crime. Even simple shit like a robbery. The cops don't know there is a robbery until you tell them you were robbed. Once Facebook alerts law enforcement that a fraud has occurred the investigation begins. There may or may not be enough evidence to file charges, and it may be quick or it may take years but they don't wait for a civil outcome. One does not follow the other.

goldenmember said:
Regarding the discussion between civil and criminal fraud cases I believe the primary concept which applies is Burden of Proof.

Civil cases [torts] only require a preponderance of the evidence for a plaintiff to be successful.

Criminal cases the burden of proof rests solely with the Prosecution [Federal or State depending on jurisdiction] to proof quilt beyond a reasonable doubt, The defendant is considered innocent until proven guilty. Much more difficult to convict.

I don't think it is a function of the chicken or the egg, just depends on how solid the case is before criminal charges may be prosecuted.
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Yes, exactly this.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
Should we start taking bets on this? My guess is he's quilty, and will end up getting criminally charged. Facebook doesn't drop this amount of time and money into someone over just a hunch. The Perkins Cole lawyers probably have an 8 inch thick file of evidence, ready to hand over to a DA, if they haven't handed it over already.
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All the sticky-shit is Federal (wire fraud). They can make a state or federal case (class X theft by deception in many states) due to the size of the fraud.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
Should we start taking bets on this? My guess is he's quilty, and will end up getting criminally charged. Facebook doesn't drop this amount of time and money into someone over just a hunch. The Perkins Cole lawyers probably have an 8 inch thick file of evidence, ready to hand over to a DA, if they haven't handed it over already.
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I'm game. I don't think he'll be charged. He may fail to appear on a CTDA or something, but I do not think any criminal charges are forthcoming.
 
Unarmed Gunman said:
No I think you're not understanding that civil and criminal are two completely different things and criminal guilt has nothing to do with civil guilt and no bearing on it.
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I understand the difference between civil and criminal completely since I've been involved in civil lawsuits in the past. In one case we had to file a lawsuit against someone for extortion and it involved preparations for pressing criminal charges after the lawsuit was filed and crucial evidence was gathered through a private investigator.

Civil lawsuits are used by private companies all the time to prepare a nicely put together evidence pack for a criminal case to a prosecutor and/or law enforcement.

Of course the civil case's verdict won't directly have an impact on someone's guilt or innocence in a criminal case. But any evidence from a civil lawsuit can then be used in a criminal case where a prosecutor will try to prove guilt without a reasonable doubt which is a much higher standard of proof than in a civil case. If the civil case has overwhelming evidence of criminal activity and it looks like a slam dunk then the prosecutor will go for it in criminal court.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
Should we start taking bets on this? My guess is he's quilty, and will end up getting criminally charged. Facebook doesn't drop this amount of time and money into someone over just a hunch. The Perkins Cole lawyers probably have an 8 inch thick file of evidence, ready to hand over to a DA, if they haven't handed it over already.
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I don't disagree, I believe he is guilty as well.

My point was that civil litigation usually precedes criminal litigation.

I also have no doubt that Face book has compiled an extraordinary amount of physical evidence to support their claim, which they will gladly hand over to Criminal prosecutors.

Criminal proceedings are dependent on Federal Prosecutors desire to proceed. He may still be too small a fish, time will tell.

I personally disdain all scammers, frauds and thieves. I will shed no tears if McGrunt is fitted in Orange Armani.
 
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poopie said:
I'm game. I don't think he'll be charged.
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Why not? He falsified bank documents, and impersonated other companies. There's a whole lot of people sitting in cells right now for a lot less than that. Plus FB lawyers have already done 80% of the legwork. They're probably just waiting for the civil suit to finish up, so they can put the polishing touches on that fat pile of evidence, before sending it to the DA's office.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
Why not? He falsified bank documents, and impersonated other companies. There's a whole lot of people sitting in cells right now for a lot less than that. Plus FB lawyers have already done 80% of the legwork.
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I agree.

If Martin isn't charged criminally, what's going to stop more sophisticated copycats from stepping in?
 
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Spamming in this thread...

And we thought grunin is the top of egomanic...
 
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