MarketLeverage vs Skrilla

Should Market Leverage Be Banned?

  • Hell YA!

    Votes: 24 64.9%

  • No Way

    Votes: 13 35.1%
  • Total voters
    37
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engaged said:
wow, F them big time. Do you screen people Jon????
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Yeah, actually we do screen advertisers, which is why we are cautious and slow about getting ads up in the 728 spot.

You should ask Market Leverage themselves how long it took them to chase after me to let them pay us for an ad. From Feb-June they had one guy IM'ing me and keeping on me about it every week.

From what I've seen and heard about Market Leverage from an affiliate's standpoint, there were no previous complaints. They've been around for a while, they have a good track record, and they checked out when I did some snooping around about them. So they were added as an advertiser.

But if one affiliate is unhappy, I can understand taking it to the forums. Skrilla asked me about it last week, and I told him to try every other route first to resolve the issue, but if he couldn't, then take it to the boards, although I didn't tell him he should ask for a forum wide ban, heh. With that said though, because of this post, now I'm seeing a lot more affiliates come out against them with some serious issues.

Bottom line.. if there are more affiliates who have been screwed by any affiliate network, ad network, merchant, etc, then they should come out and talk about it. If there are serious complaints about it, then WickedFire will take action, but if the complaints are affiliates that fucked up and are trying to pin it on that network, we'll take action against the affiliate for lying. Overall, from the complaints I'm seeing now, it doesn't look like we'll be renewing their contract for next month. Yeah, we lose out on ad dollars because of it, but until they fix the problem, I can't put the WickedFire name behind them, I don't care how much money someone wants to pay us, WE CANNOT BE BOUGHT. This will definitely fuck things up for us in terms of other advertisers, but at the end of the day, I would much rather have the trust and respect of affiliates here, than some network who is looking to screw over affiliates just to save a few bucks.

I'll contact ML and see to it that they have until then end of their contract with us for June to fix this problem and any other problems with other affiliates. If they don't... blacklist time, and this warning goes to ALL potential advertisers and networks out there. I don't care if you advertise here, if you fuck with the affiliates and screw them over when they were in full compliance with the rules, and it's either the network's fault or the advertiser's fault, too damn bad. Pay the affiliates out of pocket. I can assure you, doing that will not only build trust with your affiliates, but it will also earn the respect from us and other potential affiliates.
 


If it's specifically in ML's TOS that you are not allowed to change the copy of an ad, I don't see how you could blame them for not paying.

If that sort of thing is not clearly defined I suppose it's a different matter.
 
i dont know... i think skrilla needs to contact the advertiser. I believe ML has to give the advertiser info out so skrilla can chase down the $, make sure ML wasn't paid etc. I'd also consider small claims court to the max for both ML and the advertiser if you don't get paid.

I didn't read ML's TOS but give me a break, that is a pretty good and legit email that will get people signed up. If it specifically states not to change the to and from lines, fine, but it seems like that wasn't clear (but like I said I didn't read TOS and shit).
 
So that everyone else doesn't have to search through the T&C, here is what I believe is the issue in question:

2.2 Affiliate’s Acceptance of a Program. In addition to the representations and warranties set forth in Section 8 herein, Affiliate agrees that upon accepting an offer for a Program, it will (a) comply with all aspects of The Cam-Spam Act of 2003 (the “Act”), (b) place the creative and advertisement exactly as specified in the Program, and (c) not insert a misrepresentative, fraudulent or deceptive phrase or words in the “from line” or anywhere in the E-mail or advertisement; and (d) will use Double Opt-In (i.e., when a potential subscriber checks a box wishing to be added to an E-Mail list or to receive a newsletter, and then receives a confirmation E-Mail) when sending Company urls (code) to potential subscribers, or when sending newsletters or E-Mails with Company code. Failure to adhere to these requirements may, in addition to all other remedies available to Company, result in immediate termination of this Agreement and withholding of a Bounty or any payment to Affiliate, without penalty to Company.

From: https://users.marketleverage.com/agreement.html
 
From our T&C's

2.2 Affiliate’s Acceptance of a Program. In addition to the representations and warranties set forth in Section 8 herein, Affiliate agrees that upon accepting an offer for a Program, it will (a) comply with all aspects of The Cam-Spam Act of 2003 (the “Act”), (b) place the creative and advertisement exactly as specified in the Program, and (c) not insert a misrepresentative, fraudulent or deceptive phrase or words in the “from line” or anywhere in the E-mail or advertisement; and (d) will use Double Opt-In (i.e., when a potential subscriber checks a box wishing to be added to an E-Mail list or to receive a newsletter, and then receives a confirmation E-Mail) when sending Company urls (code) to potential subscribers, or when sending newsletters or E-Mails with Company code. Failure to adhere to these requirements may, in addition to all other remedies available to Company, result in immediate termination of this Agreement and withholding of a Bounty or any payment to Affiliate, without penalty to Company.
 
MikeKelly said:
Hi everyone..My name is Mike Kelly and I am the affiliate manager at Market Leverage who is responsible for working with skrilla. First off…I believe this post really distorts the issue and want to make sure everyone knows what happened.

In an effort to increase the amount of publishing skrilla did for MarketLeverage, I reached out to him in June and gave him the exclusive on a promising new Harry and David campaign. From our perspective all was going well and skrilla was scheduled to receive payments on a weekly basis as a result.

Three days into him running the campaign we received an alarming phone call and fax from the advertiser which showed that skrilla was using an unapproved creative, from line, and subject line which aggressively created the impression that the email recipient was already being sent a Harry and David Gift basket and that they needed to provide “Gift Delivery Confirmation”.

Like many of you….we have seen many variations of marketing etc. over the years…some advertisers are more aggressive than others…what is ok for one may not be for another. That is why there is Approved Creative. The issue here is that skrilla altered the creative in significant ways without getting approval from us (and us in turn from the advertiser). MarketLeverage is very clear about not altering ads…we have to be because advertisers can and do hold back payments when people change the advertising beyond what is allowed.

A few more points:

  • MarketLeverage will not receive a single penny for the 22k in traffic Skrilla generated. Yes, it is true that the advertiser probably made some money…but we do not want to be a network where people distort creative and we or they profit from it. The best way for us to be a great network is to work hard at providing great ads at great payouts and to partner with publishers who either run approved creative or work through the right channels to get creative approved.
  • MarketLeverage received a legal notice from Harry and David as a result of skrilla’s campaign. We have since had to take the ad down after making it available to other publishers who did nothing wrong.
  • As skrilla pointed out, we tried to work with him after the issue with this campaign by giving him full payouts after this issue arose..we did this because he promised he would no longer change ads without approval…we took him at his word.
  • We are not refusing to pay skrilla for the other campaigns he did with us (16K). I admit that I did tell him we were going to pay him for this on Monday. After others in the company saw the issue that was created with Harry and David they decided to pay skrilla net 15 in case any other issues arise as a result of is past traffic.
To summarize, ML has never not paid a publisher in 3 years and through millions of CPA transactions unless fraud or creative distortions took place. There have been many instances where we have paid publishers despite not receiving payments ourselves. Publishers have a right to be paid on legit traffic and advertisers have a right to expect that their creative and message are not distorted by publishers. Fortunately, the vast majority of our publishers and advertisers understand this and have formed good relationships with us.
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hehe I was wondering when you all would see this. Michael I think your a good guy and have been a solid AM. I believed that you wanted to work with me on this. My beef is not with you but your boss Sal.

A few comments on your reply: You all with-held payment from me not once but twice. As mentioned in my post the orginal ETA on the wire was Friday. You said you didnt feel it should go out on friday and said it would go out on Monday, yesterday by 5pm. I asked you at least 3 times during the day when that wire is going out. Then today, you tell me that some advertiser Net 15 crap. if you guys are a reptuable, high volume company like you claim you are , ML, shouldn't have a problem paying me whats owed ON TIME!

I still have a hard time believing you all didn't get paid on the leads. Your word is not enough because Market leverage's "word" is tarnished with me. ALso you still haven't disclosed who the advertiser is. No one has any way of confirming that.

You pointed out the full payments, but you were vague on it. it's unfortunate I had to bring this to WF's attention, but the agreement was full price per leads on the 16k im owed after all this shit that went down. (Making the total amount to 20K+). And did I not start a mailing for you all on Thursday night after sending you that Kohls AD to get approved? Why am I soo pissed Michael? And you guys agreed to wire me the 20k+ on Friday. After seeing my traffic for ONE DAY you backed out fo the agreement. What kind of shit is that??
 
The approved creative from ML

From:
Indulge Yourself
Food Lovers
Gift Basket Bonanza
Let’s Celebrate
Gourmet Gifts

Subject:

CUSTOM SUBJECT LINES AVAILABLE WITH AFF MGR APPROVAL OR YOU MAY USE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:

Get a $500 Harry & David(r) Gift Card by Participating
Looking for Great Gift? Then Open This
Love Harry & David(r)? Get a $500 Gift Card by Participating
Give the Gift of Good Taste
Indulge yourself with a $500 Harry & David(r) Gift Card

Text Creative:


Indulge yourself with your own $500 Harry & David gift card.(Participation required. See below for details.)

>>CLICK HERE<<

Choose from a wide assortment of chocolates, candies and confections, desserts, snacks, fruit butters and preserves, condiments, relishes, easy-to-prepare specialty foods, and fresh fruit in season. Use you $500 Harry & David gift card at harryanddavid.com, catalog or in any U.S. retail location.

>>CLICK HERE<<

Simply take our survey and complete the participation requirements. It's that easy!

Regards,


Your friends at eSurvey Panel


To unsubscribe from future advertisements from eSurveyPanel.com, go to: http://www.eSurveyPanel.com/supplemental/unsub.php

eSurvey Panel | 4064 N. Lincoln #107 | Chicago IL, 60618

To receive your gift you must: 1) register with valid information; 2) complete the user survey; 3) complete at least 1 Silver, 1 Gold and 2 Platinum Offers. Purchase may be required. Please read the Terms and Conditions for details. Upon completion of all requirements, we will ship the incentive gift to you with free shipping.

eSurveyPanel.com is an independent rewards program for consumers and is not affiliated with, sponsored by or endorsed by any of the listed products or retailers. Trademarks, service marks, logos, and/or domain names (including, without limitation, the individual names of products and retailers) are the property of their respective owners.

Copyright © 2007 eSurveyPanel.com. All rights reserved.
 
Without knowing either party, based on what has been posted, seems like the From and Subject line used are deceptive.
 
MikeKelly said:
To receive your gift you must: 1) register with valid information; 2) complete the user survey; 3) complete at least 1 Silver, 1 Gold and 2 Platinum Offers.
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so assuming $22k worth of leads did all of the above, what exactly is the advertiser bitching about? is the quality of the surveys low or something? they definitely made money with the campaign and at least a partial payment is due to ML and skrilla imo. they're trying to get off easy on a technicality
 
poolemit said:
so assuming $22k worth of leads did all of the above, what exactly is the advertiser bitching about? is the quality of the surveys low or something? they definitely made money with the campaign and at least a partial payment is due to ML and skrilla imo. they're trying to get off easy on a technicality
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There was nothing wrong with the quality of the leads. ML loved the quality of leads I was producing. Apparently a complaint was sent to the advertiser; again nothing to do with the quality of leads. Just a complaint.
 
The thing that seems absolutely asinine to me is this: "We received a legal notice from the advertiser". Okay, so shouldn't the publisher in question be privy to something that is, in all reality, directed at them? What's this bullshit about withholding that information?

I'm pretty sure even a half-assed attorney could have a sopeana for that in about 15 minutes flat.
 
Again this kind of stuff has hapened before. I KNOW NETWORKS GET PAID FOR THE LEADS. I asked Sal on the phone if this kind of thing has happened before with Market Leverage. He said YES and then I asked what were the terms. He responded that has nothign to do my issue and kept dodging my question. I STILL BELIEVE THAT MARKET LEVERAGE GOT THEIR CUT FOR THE LEADS. Let's just say for fuck sake that ML didn't get paid, why in the world would you keep doing business with the advertiser. Sal himself said and I quote, "This advertiser has me by the balls". It doesn't add up. WHy would ML be withholding this information to me?
 
Seems to me skrilla violated the Terms of Service and did so in a way that's incredibly unethical (claiming a gift was being sent, trying to trick people into signing up). Doing so can definitely hurt the affiliate company and the advertiser's brand as they wouldn't want to be associated with such perceived shady practices.

Obviously I don't know the whole story, but the story I've seen so far seems like ML did the right thing as skrilla didn't follow the rules.
 
So from what I can see, if Market Leverage is actually loyal to its affiliates and serious about resolving this, the following needs to happen:

- The other 16k (non related to this particular Ad) needs to be paid promptly. They promised it would be paid last friday. It was not. They promised it would be paid Monday. It was not. And it still has not been paid. Anyone who has gotten anywhere in business understands the importance of punctual payments.

- Market Leverage needs to relay the information about the advertiser, so Skrilla can contact them directly and take THEIR WORD that Market Leverage has not been paid. If they do not feel comfortable doing this for whatever reason (perhaps THEY DID get paid) then they need to work out some kind of partial payment for the leads generated (perhaps a lowered pay rate).

- Convince the rest of the forum that when future issues like this arise and there is a conflict between the advertiser and affiliate, Market Leverage will actually fight for their affiliates and work to resolve the issue with the advertiser, like a good middleman should instead of just standing by and letting their affiliates take it up the ass.


If the above conditions are not met, we can all wave bye-bye to Market leverage, as their reputation is being significantly tarnished. And in this Biz i don't have to tell you, that your reputation with the people who actually bring in the traffic for you Is everything.
 
Yup, sorry skrilla, you violated TOS (at least for the first batch of traffic). Whether or not ML or anyone else makes money off it is out of your hands.

Here's the thing though: if ML has ever KNOWINGLY allowed you to change / alter a subject line or header of a campaign, then you probably have a legal leg to stand on (because they've established a precident where you could forseeably alter their message without the penalties you received here).

I mean... Dude. Your creative was VERY decietful and fundamentally different from the approved lines that were originally allowed. Next time, your changes should probably get green-lit by the network or your AM before you send, to avoid these hassles.
 
To clear up a few things:

  • In response to the “Double – Opt in” reference in our terms and conditions. ML does not require all mailers to use only double opt in list. Lists obviously must be compliant with all laws etc. We Require double opt in only when an affiliate is using a naked non redirected link from the MarketLeverage system in an email campaign. Since nearly all affiliates redirect their own traffic for tracking purposes..this is really does not affect many people.
  • The approved creative had:
    • “(Participation required. See below for details.)” in the FIRST line of the ad. Skrilla took this out.
    • Any approved subject line that offered the consumer something “Get a $500 Harry and David ® Gift Card” ALSO included “by Participating” Skrilla rewrote a new and deceptive subject line and left out “By Participating”
    • There is a detailed list of requirements for a consumer in the approved ad – AGAIN SKRILLA DELETED THIS:
To receive your gift you must: 1) register with valid information; 2) complete the user survey; 3) complete at least 1 Silver, 1 Gold and 2 Platinum Offers. Purchase may be required. Please read the Terms and Conditions for details. Upon completion of all requirements, we will ship the incentive gift to you with free shipping. eSurveyPanel.com is an independent rewards program for consumers and is not affiliated with, sponsored by or endorsed by any of the listed products or retailers. Trademarks, service marks, logos, and/or domain names (including, without limitation, the individual names of products and retailers) are the property of their respective owners.

    • Finally…the last line of the ad which skrilla also made up “Confirm your Email & Pickup your Gift Basket Online Now” is completely misleading. A consumer would believe that their email address is all they need to get a gift basket which is already “Being Sent”! How is this a legit lead? The approved ad has several notices and an explanation about what a consumer can expect to do to get the GIFT CARD (NOT GIFT BASKET). In skrilla’s ad all of these notices have been removed and consumers are told a basket is being sent and all that is required is an email address!

  • I am handling this because Sal is on vacation.
  • In Summary
    • Skrilla was not authorized to change the ad and did so in a damaging way for the advertiser and the consumer.
    • Skrilla admitted he sent the ad.
    • MarketLeverage received a legal notice from Harry and David directed to MarketLeverage. If skrilla would like we would be happy to direct Harry and David directly to him. Our policy is to resolve these things and only provide info on the affiliate if compelled to do so.
    • MarketLeverage WILL NOT BE GETTING PAID from the advertiser for skrillas leads.
 
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