Marijuana Fights Cancer

[shindig]

That is a pretty scary/negative outlook. Can you elaborate a bit? Have you seen firsthand the money/power the pharma lobby wields etc, I'd be curious to hear your perspective because of your background experiences. As someone living in the Bay Area of California I just don't see it NOT happening within a few years tops. It is honestly hard to find people that don't smoke cannabis fairly regularly, from all demographics etc.

People selling herb here don't want it legalized and don't support "pro pot" legislation.

The federal gov made our gov veto legislation just before it was going to pass saying they threatened to charge state workers with drug charges for selling medical pot out of state run liquor stores (armed guard and check id already there).

You can't walk down the University Ave here without passing dozens of people trying to sell you bud, cheaper than dispensaries. Dispensaries don't want it legal, people growing for dispensaries or general public don't either.

You have the private prison industry, you can even buy stock in it and benefit from "drug programs" and non prison shit. Any kid that gets caught with a joint has to go to some classes you can make money off:

The GEO Group, Inc. - Investor Relations - Investor Relations

• Correctional Facilities
• Detention Centers
• Mental Health Services Facilities
• Community Re-entry Programs
• Youth Rehabilitation $ervices
• Electronic Monitoring $ervices
• Facility Design
• Infrastructure Financing
• Turnkey Construction
• Other Government Service

In addition to other reasons...like I'd rather eat a brownie than a percocet.

 

[DexterMorgan]

People selling herb here don't want it legalized and don't support "pro pot" legislation.

You can't walk down the University Ave here without passing dozens of people trying to sell you bud, cheaper than dispensaries. Dispensaries don't want it legal, people growing for dispensaries or general public don't either.

California's workers have been threatened as well, mainly they have gone after the landlords leasing the properties to the dispensaries/grows etc.

Some people selling herb here don't want it legalized like you said, but the vast majority of the industry here in California is just looking for a reasonable light at the end of the tunnel at this point...all these community referendums, bans, ballot votes, landlords being threatened, gov employees claiming they're at risk, consistent raids, unrealistic zoning regulations, etc has gotta end. Everyone is just tired of it all here...even the utmost "family-first" conservatives are starting talk about realistic regulations etc. It is pretty unavoidable I think, I'm very interested to see what happens anyways.

I would go as far to say that the majority of the general public in California DOES want it legalized now. It was very close on the last election at around 46% I think. Whenever it is actually put to the entire state this next time I do see legalization happening. The desert valley areas, conservative suburbs and eastern areas here do still have MASSIVE conservative support, but I don't think they have enough to beat this issue anymore. Just the Bay Area/So-cal metro areas alone represent a massive portion of votes. But like I said, I can only imagine the:

"OK so it is legalized, WHAT DO WE DO NOW" chaos that will ensue. My god that is an entirely different war in itself.

 

[Benji49]

Because you are proudly integrated into an indoctrinated system and then dare say non-indoctrinated phrases to other indoctrinated people. That is why you get the silence.

It is like someone explaining to you that having a small government and a large military presence around the world is illogical. You are far too indoctrinated to see why that doesn't make sense. So when you say something logical to other indoctrinated people, like 'government shouldn't tell me what I can smoke in the privacy of my own house which I paid for and pay taxes on while I'm not hurting no one' they won't get it. It is logical as fuck; but propaganda has already eroded their ability to be coherent. Very much in the same way as it has eroded your ability to be coherent on most topics.

If you had an independent way of thinking and hung out with other people who thought independently, you'd hear people having an opinion of their own, backed by something other than propaganda. But then again, you wouldn't get that cozy-warm feeling of belonging to a herd.

Did that sumbitch just called me indoctrinated?

 

[JRose]

That is a pretty scary/negative outlook. Can you elaborate a bit?

From my perspective, most of these answers are much more complex than I'll explain here, but I'll take it one at a time and give my overview.

Warning: Many of you will find this post to be tl;dr, there is no short version

Have you seen firsthand the money/power the pharma lobby wields etc., I'd be curious to hear your perspective because of your background experiences.

If you're asking if I've personally seen money exchange hands, the answer is no. What I have personally seen are contracts and lobbying budgets at a few of the bigger pharma companies. Some of the numbers are ridiculous. I don't know why anyone would want to be a politician when they could be a lobbyist, make more money and still wield incredible influence.

Also, one or two of my former co-workers ended up being lobbyists after leaving the industry. The stories I've heard about trips, dinners and gifts to sway opinions and votes are crazy. But keep in mind that I can't verify any of that; I heard it from those who were supposedly involved. I'm not trying to start rumors or badmouth the industry, there's a lot of good that goes on too, so take that with a grain of salt. And While I don't see a reason they'd make that up, people do a lot of crazy things. This was also prior to some of the current laws restricting lobbying, which may or may not have changed the way things operate, but if it did change things, I'm sure ways around the rules have been found.

Additionally, I worked on a few compounds that left me flabbergasted when they gained initial approval. They didn't end up making it all the way through to the market, but other compounds that had similar toxicology findings were shot down quickly. Either the FDA was having bad days when those drugs were moved to the next stage or they were lobbied hard to push them through. With the early excitement surrounding these specific compounds, I'm inclined to believe it had more to do with lobbying than a bad couple of days. Though again, that's just an educated guess.

Then you have to keep in mind that it isn't just big pharma throwing money at the FDA and politicians. Banks and investment groups fund a lot of initial research, especially when dealing with a smaller drug or biotech firm. They have a stake in seeing their drug go to market and competing drugs fail to gain approval. Lobbying against something is just as important as lobbying for something, sometimes more so.

It's also not just drug companies and their backers doing this type of thing. NORML, other pro and anti-pot groups, and policing and prison agencies are throwing money at lobbyists as well. As much as people like to complain about how much it costs to keep a person locked up, someone is making money off that. The more people that are in jail/prison, the more workers those places need and the more important those jobs appear. All of that leads to higher profits for the corporations running the facilities, and higher salaries and pensions for workers when it comes time to renegotiate contracts.

As more and more correctional facilities are being taken over by private institutions, you're likely to see an uptick in the number of bills in both federal and state legislation calling for harsher drug laws and penalties, even though we already have some of the most ridiculous in the world. The only way private jails/prisons make money is by having full facilities, kind of like schools. The government is still paying for the facility to run, but they no longer have to actually run it, and the managing corp is paid based on the number of prisoners they house. The politicians aren't just making these laws up, they're being spoon fed to them by lobbyists working for someone with a vested interest.

As for the organizations like NORML and other pro-pot groups, they are apparently incredibly ineffective at lobbying at the federal level, though they appear to be doing a relatively good job at the state and local levels. The big problem I have with them is that they appear to be lobbying at the federal level almost entirely for legalization. In my opinion, it would be wiser to first get it reclassified as a lesser schedule and then take the step to get it legalized at the federal level. The biggest thing with this issue is that it’s always going to be positioned as a cultural/moral/ethical issue in most of the country. In order to move a foot, you first have to move an inch. If they can't move an inch at the federal level, they'll never be able to move a foot.

How does any of that pertain to legalizing marijuana?

Cancer isn't the primary concern in the pharma industry as far as marijuana goes, at least not yet. The big concerns are over pain management and anti-psychotics. That vicodin or oxy that you take is their drug. They created it, they sell it, they profit from it. Until patents run out, and I'm fairly certain both of those have, no other drug company can make the same compound in a generic form. That means the maker gets a long run of virtually unopposed sales, and they should, it took a ton of money to develop the drug. A single week-long study with just 32 non-human primates can easily run over a couple of million dollars, and that's if you outsource it to a Contract Research Organization (CRO). That's not taking into account earlier development costs that are typically much more expensive overall. Those typically include running studies on rats, mice, beagles, rabbits, etc., which depending on length and size can run anywhere from a under a $100k to more than a million each. Then there's the cost of actually formulating and developing the compound before any of this happens and that can literally cost $50-60 million plus for some drugs. Then you still have to get through the FDA approval for clinical trials, the clinical trials themselves and then final FDA approval for use, all of that costs a ton more money. In addition, if 5 years later they find out the drug is useful for a condition other than it was originally intended, they have to go through nearly the same process before they can market it for the new condition. Then you have to remember that probably 50% of drugs wash out in human clinical trials, if not more, a good 60-70% wash out during preclinical animal testing, and even more wash out during initial development. Those are all costs these places have to recoup if the drug fails to get to market or is a flop.

Now, about marijuana and pain management. This is probably the biggest area of threat to pharma companies when it comes to pot. A number of cannabinoids found in marijuana have shown great promise in providing pain relief, they all act in slightly different ways, but primarily they attach to, or are 'taken up' by, cannabinoid and opioid receptors in the brain, the same places where things like vicodin and oxy attach and assist in pain management. The fear with marijuana, is having to go through all the testing, setting up massive grow houses and then setting up distribution. That's all more than doable, and if there weren’t competition, any company in their right mind would jump at the chance. But getting a patent on marijuana, even if it were a custom strain, would be damn near impossible. So instead of being able to corner the market and sell it for $90-$150+ a gram, every drug company would be offering marijuana and that would drive down the price to what you'd currently pay at a dispensary. And that's just if it's legal on the federal level for medicine. If you completely legalize it, you'd have people replacing their oxy with pot and growing it in their backyard or buying it at the corner station. That completely cuts pharma out of the equation, obviously something they don't want.

Anti-psychotics are another area where certain types of marijuana have shown promise. Cannabidiol (CBD) which I discussed a little earlier in this thread has been shown to treat schizophrenia as well as antipsychotics in very preliminary trials. There isn't anything set in stone yet, but indications are good that CBD may ultimately be the compound of choice when it comes to treating this disorder. Additionally, it has significantly fewer side effects than antipsychotic medications. Why does this work? CBD acts on the same receptors in the brain that antipsychotic medications target and help to stabilize receptor pathways that are damaged, disrupted or disabled for some other reason, at least that's the current understanding of how they work and why results were positive. Once again, developing new antipsychotics is expensive, if pot proves to be just as effective it results in lower profit margins whether they decide to produce pot or a different compound.

That's a lot of incentive to fight for keeping marijuana illegal for both medical and recreational use.


Note to all you crazies out there: Don't stop taking your meds and smoking mountains of weed. Nothing has been proven to be effective long-term yet. Instead, keep taking your meds and smoking mountains of weed.

Ok, it's late and that was incredibly long. I'll get back to your other questions, which I think are much more interesting sometime tomorrow.

 

[DexterMorgan]

^^^ Dude thank you for all of that. I am aware of most of what you talked about, but you brought up some additional things I hadn't really considered much.

The thing is, I really do think one of these three western states is going to pass a legalization (21+) initiative...Colorado looks poised to take the cake I think. They have great support, reasonable regulations, and a lot of funding now. I am just waiting with a big bowl of popcorn to see this whole "states rights/feds will threaten to pull funding" showdown that is likely to happen VERY soon lol.

I have tried some of the strains that have been grown to be high in CBD, Harlequin in particular is very interesting. Very calming, relaxing without the typical "heady/raciness/anxiety" you see in a lot of sativas, hybrids, and even some indicas.

I worry though that pharma is going to try and isolate these compounds and sell them if federal legalization were to happen. Like vaporizing is MUCH healthier for you longterm, as is eating edibles, but if you talk to anyone who uses cannabis regularly there really is nothing quite like smoking the stuff. I enjoy the vapes, but nothing will get you medicated like a bong rip in my opinion. The whole plant is important, and I do worry that legalization could actually go in a scary direction as well. But right now we just need to move forward as a country...prohibition does not work and never will.

I agree with you that they really should have gone after reclassification first, but I thought I read that it is a very good possibility and almost unavoidable at this point that they will be reclassifying it regardless...so I'm not sure if spending money/resources on just reclassifying the plant at a federal level would be worth it for any of these pro-pot supporters. I could be wrong about that but I thought we are heading in the direction of them reclassifying it very soon anyways (the outcries from the medical associations etc help I think). I also think these pro-pot groups are basically going with the" GO BIG OR GO HOME approach to legalization.

I agree it may not be the smartest, but at the same time, they know that our government is running out of time to actually take action on the issue. I can only imagine the conversations that have been going on between local/state leaders in these western states and the feds. I think they really are running out of time and we will be seeing a showdown of sorts.

 

[shindig]

^^ Not just strains that affect it but when it's harvested affects it as well. (varying % of thc that converts to cannibinoids based on harvest time)

I wish the states would just stand up and pass it and force the feds to reconsider. But the state politicians align with the feds when it matters. It's on the ballot here again, it gets closer to passing every time.

And in all my life I've never had anything grown indoors that compared to outdoor grown down in San Diego in that hot sun.

 

[DexterMorgan]

^^^ Honestly man, I have had PERFECTED outdoor from so-cal and and norcal over the years, and something like indoor "designer strains" like Girl Scout Cookies, regular OG Kush varients, etc will absolutely crush even the most perfected outdoor strains in terms of potency. That being said, I love some outdoor strains in particular.

You could honestly sell the good outdoor here in California in the midwest/eastern/southern states for $60 an eighth ($400+ an OZ) all day long, it is VERY good but outdoor just does not compare in terms of potency when you put it up against the best indoor strains now. Some of these new strains, cherry pie is another one blowing up here etc are seeing astronomical THC percentages. Really though, the concentrate game is where a lot of people are turning to. Wax and hash etc. Wax will put you out of commission for sure. I can't smoke that stuff regularly as you build a tolerance ridiculously quick. You know it is bad when you can smoke a joint of OG Kush and not even feel anything lol. The THC percentage in a good wax is NUTS.

You guys have a problem with the eastern part of your state being too conservative, and not enough liberal metro populations I would imagine. I think you will be close but not get it this year. Oregon is the other state but their regulations are VERY LOOSE, meaning there will likely be much more of a backlash against the issue there, even though its a very liberal state. Who knows though...

It is just funny when I have family/friends visit from the midwest and they try these strains and concentrates it blows their mind. My one friend was smoking on Cinderella 99 and was complaining to me that it wasn't really affecting him (he's like: I need heavy shit man). A little later he is staring into space sitting on the couch and I ask him what's up. He's like "dude this is the clearest high I have ever experienced. I can function but I am lost in my thoughts and I want to go out and do something now. Its like I'm high, but I am not". It makes me realize that most of the buds people smoke on throughout the US outside of medical states are clearly Indica-dominant, easier to grow on the low etc. Simply put, weed is not just weed and a lot of people are discovering that...just sucks for people that do not have a choice yet.

 

[shindig]

^^^ Honestly man, I have had PERFECTED outdoor from so-cal and and norcal over the years, and something like indoor "designer strains" like Girl Scout Cookies, regular OG Kush varients, etc will absolutely crush even the most perfected outdoor strains in terms of potency. That being said, I love some outdoor strains in particular.

You could honestly sell the good outdoor here in California in the midwest/eastern/southern states for $60 an eighth ($400+ an OZ) all day long, it is VERY good but outdoor just does not compare in terms of potency when you put it up against the best indoor strains now. Some of these new strains, cherry pie is another one blowing up here etc are seeing astronomical THC percentages. Really though, the concentrate game is where a lot of people are turning to. Wax and hash etc. Wax will put you out of commission for sure. I can't smoke that stuff regularly as you build a tolerance ridiculously quick. You know it is bad when you can smoke a joint of OG Kush and not even feel anything lol.

You guys have a problem with the eastern part of your state being too conservative, and not enough liberal metro populations I would imagine. I think you will be close but not get it this year. Oregon is the other state but their regulations are VERY LOOSE, meaning there will likely be much more of a backlash against the issue there, even though its a very liberal state. Who knows though...

Yeah, but I still feel if you could grow outdoor openly bringing the precision of hydroponics and all the expertise with nutrients into the bright ass sunlight there would be even better medicine.

My old hippy uncle had the most amazing stuff I've ever had and he had the nutrients down to a science, started them in early jan, and would tie the tops down creating a sea of tops.

And yeah like 3/4 of this state are conservative.

It's already "the lowest priority enforceable by law" in the city of Seattle, for anyone over 18 to possess up to 40 grams. You have to turn down people asking to sell you bud constantly anywhere populated and it's more common than cigarette smoke as you're walking around.

I was stopped by a park ranger with an 1/8 in my front pocket for fishing with barbed hooks off the fishing pier downtown lol and he didn't fuck with me even though he smelled and asked about it. Those guys are usually really nasty.

I moved out here from near baltimore and it fucked my mind. The whole atmosphere people are so chill. I feel this picture sums it up nicely:

 

[ScottDaMan]

Nice to see you around Turbo.