Land of the Free

[Pseudo Nym]

Anarchy is not in opposition with voluntary associations. The Amish are looked at as anarchistic community. Their people are free to leave, they don't force outsiders to do anything and they want the same treatment in return.


"Which people in America today don’t serve in the military, pay no social security taxes, homeschool their children, and generally have convinced the federal government to leave them the hell alone? The Amish, in communities scattered throughout the U.S. and Canada, live in a state as close to property-based anarchy as you’re likely to find in the Western world."


Anti-State.com : Anarchy and the Good Life , by Lee McCracken

The Amish have their own laws, which, if you do not follow, you may be excommunicated. So, you may be free to associate or dissociate at will from an Amish community, but within the community you are hardly free to do as you please.

But the same applies to a state. You can dissociate from the state if you choose*, but expect to be no longer welcome within it. You can also expect to be subject to its laws while within it. What's the difference between an Amish community with laws and territory, and a state with laws and territory?

*usually

(I did read the article BTW, and thought it made some good points - ones that libertarians could certainly stand to take to heart.)

People don't know they don't want state. They don't think about it. They were born in state and don't know other options. They don't see taxes as oppression, they don't see all this nonsense government is feeding them with. They live happily being bothered with Facebook updates. It is just few feeling uncomfortable with state's dick inside their anuses. For me this dick went deeply enough to open my eyes.

These people are just like children who have yet to be educated on the subject and sooner or later they will reject the state on their own... So I don't think we have to restrict their freedom at all; they'll want the state gone too once they see the alternative for themselves.

You both speak as if people would just realize the "truth" they'd come around to accepting anarchy as the obviously right path. And yet, there are many intelligent and reasonable people who have considered that point of view and rejected it.

Can you accept that not everyone who disagrees with you is an ignorant child? Indeed, it's not uncommon to see libertarians characterized the same way.

Is it comprehensible to you that people just have different ideas about how to live? There are 190-ish countries in the world. If you can't find one that suits you, perhaps consider finding some like-minded people and starting your own. Maybe you can get a kickstarter going to buy an island, or something.

 

[shindig]

Expanding on Pseudo with the amish. Each farm/family has a local church with 10-20 neighboring families. When it gets above 20 families, they break off a new church.

Every other sunday they have church with those 10-20 families. They use the same church equipment(mostly benches) as 150+ years ago with the same wagon custom made where each bench slides in, and it travels to whichever family is hosting the church that particular week.

There is a head bishop guy that travels around to each church to visit and make sure they're within the protocol. aka some authority figure

The only time you're completely free is when you turn 16 until 20~ whenever you marry and rejoin the church. When you rejoin the church, you have to give up your free way of life and after that point you get excommunicated for breaking the rules you commit to abide by. Some people never rejoin the church and their parent's don't excommunicate them but I don't know what kinda shit they take in private.

 

[scottspfd82]

Does a free society send government hit men to eliminate anyone they perceive to be an enemy of the state?

No, a free society allows privately employed hitmen to eliminate anyone their employer perceives to be an enemy

That's against everything a "free" society stands for.

The non-aggression principle (also called the non-aggression axiom, the anti-coercion principle, the zero aggression principle, the non-initiation of force, or NAP) is a moral stance which asserts that aggression is inherently illegitimate. Aggression, for the purposes of the NAP, is defined as the initiation or threatening of violence against a person or legitimately owned property of another. Specifically, any unsolicited actions of others that physically affect an individual’s property, including that person’s body, no matter if the result of those actions is damaging, beneficial, or neutral to the owner, are considered violent when they are against the owner’s free will and interfere with his right to self-determination, as based on the libertarian principle of self-ownership. Supporters of NAP use it to demonstrate the immorality of theft, vandalism, assault, and fraud. In contrast to pacifism, the non-aggression principle does not preclude violence used in self-defense or defense of others.[1]
Many supporters argue that NAP opposes such policies as victimless crime laws, taxation, and military drafts. NAP is the foundation of most present day libertarian philosophies.

Does a free society have hundreds of police agencies, each with the authority to deprive a man of his life, liberty and property in their sole discretion?

No, a free society has thousands of private security firms, each with no accountability to anyone besides their employer.

Lack of Government doesn't mean lack of personal accountability. You can't initiate violence without consequences.

Does a free society have hundreds of thousands of laws, codes, rules, regulations, and policies which effectively criminalize nearly every aspect of one's existence?

Yes, each man in a free society sets his own laws for his own best interests. "No trespassing on my property or you will be shot". That's a law with a threat of violence.

Again, lack of rulers doesn't mean lack of morals or accountability.

Does a free society lead the world in prison population?

Who knows.

I'd guess the answer would be "no". "Prison" in a free society is an oxymoron.

Does a free society hunt down criminals and terrorists by treating its citizens like criminals and terrorists?

Most governments don't, mine certainly doesn't.

Your prison population is growing at an alarming rate. Your country is privatizing the industry. It has been for 20 years.

The larger the prison population, the longer the sentences, the larger the payout under government contracts; the more prisoners, the more prisons, the more growth. Private Prisons in Australia: Our 20 year trial | Deaths in Custody Watch Committee WA

1/4 of your prison population are aborigines, yet they make up less than 3% of your population. Are they that bad? Or are they an easier target?

Does a free society tell its citizens what foods they are / are not allowed to consume?

Government has imposed laws on packaging such as nutritional content and ingredients so you're able to make your own choices based on good information. What foods has the US government forced you to stop consuming? none I bet.

Community co-ops, home grown foods and rain water is a good start. Or how about having a swat team show up, point an AR-15 in your face and imprison you for possessing raw milk?

Does a free society steal your money at gunpoint to buy bombs that they drop by remote control on brown people in faraway lands?

Your government does, mine doesn't.

I served with a lot of Aussies in the Middle East circa 2003. They weren't there on vacation. Who pays their salary? What did the people you send troops there to fight do to you?

Does a free society debase its currency and plunder the purchasing power of its citizens?

Your purchasing power is stunning, a used Lamborghini for what, $80k? what are you complaining about? $200k here. You don't realise how good you have it, ungrateful swine.

So it's okay for a Government to force us to pay for negligent spending, immoral wars of aggression, take ~50%+ of our income AND rapidly devalue our currency by flooding our economy with counterfeit money?

Call me ungrateful, that shit impacts you too.

Does a free society saddle unborn generations with obligations they never signed up to bear?

Some kids didn't sign up for crackhead parents. That's life.

Yeah, because it's a totally sustainable system. Point your grandchildren to this thread in 50 years when they're literally slaves to the debt you left for them to inherit.

Does a free society award near total control of the economy, the money supply, and everything tied to it, to a tiny elite few?

Yes, capitalism allows an elite few to rise to the top. Got a problem with that? They will eventually and inevitably get themselves to a position of control. Are you suggesting money should be more fairly distributed? socialist.

Capitalism allows those in power to confiscate the property of others through aggression? Capitalism allows the rich to not only tax, but print counterfeit money on demand as they see fit? No, it doesn't.

Does a free society brainwash its citizens into believing that they live in a free society? (at least the Chinese know they're not free...)

It is impossible to have complete and total freedom. People accept a number of limitations for the good of society. In a completely free society I could go out with no pants on and an erection, but it might make a lot of people uncomfortable.

In other words, you don't go around shoving your boner in little kids faces because you're afraid of the Government and no other reason?

Can you accept that not everyone who disagrees with you is an ignorant child?

95%+ of people I love/care about/surround myself with love the state. I don't go to Grandma's for dinner and call the family a bunch of evil statist idiots because they believe in something I believed in for most of my life.

I talk about this stuff with friends when it comes up in conversation, and in discussions like this one. 3 years ago I would have thought a stateless society is an idiotic idea.

I don't refuse to date a chick because she's a democrat. I don't refuse to do business with people who support the State. I have tremendous respect for many who support the state. I judge people as individuals.

I don't try to force my beliefs on anyone. I will happily share my thoughts and what I've learned with people who are curious about alternatives, because even hardcore statists are realizing more than ever that SOMETHING is broken, and looking for alternatives to the system we have now.

 

[REIMktg]

Everyone here is "Free" to make a difference in our current society. Nothing is stopping you from becoming an influence like a Soros or the Media.

Hellblazer has been telling all of you this for a long time, but no one wants to step up. Go ahead, bitch and moan and do nothing truly productive. So many here are all talk.

 

[scottspfd82]

Go ahead, bitch and moan and do nothing truly productive. So many here are all talk.

Every thread that gets 1 person thinking is productive. Talk is how ideas spread. In the mean time, I'm looking out for #1, and that means grinding. I'm living well, state or not. If I can change a mind or two along the way all the better.

 

[dreamache]

Go ahead, bitch and moan and do nothing truly productive. So many here are all talk.

To add to the above poster's point, if it wasn't for internet discussions, I wouldn't be where I'm at now in my understanding of philosophy/politics/religion/etc..

Assuming the only way to make change is to run for office or become some public figurehead isn't accurate.

 

[REIMktg]

I can back off my point about not doing anything - the issue is that you can make change within the system.

The tools are at anyone's disposal. Do not talk to me about Ron Paul, he cannot be the poster boy, no one is interested in his ideas. People need to realize this too - just because your ideas are not "catching on" does not mean that everyone else is dumb or ignorant. It may be that they simply do not like your idea.

It's like business. You cannot make the market what you want, but you can show them what they should want, persuasively. This is how Apple did it.

 

[dreamache]

Do not talk to me about Ron Paul, he cannot be the poster boy, no one is interested in his ideas.

Really now, no one? :1orglaugh:

I think many people are interested in his ideas, including myself, but the massive influence the controlling class has is still too strong to compete.. The internet though is changing the landscape. It's no wonder they want to restrict it more and more.

Certainly though, running for local office or showing up at every politically related event in your city/township and voicing your opinion can definitely do more than arguing on an internet forum. I agree in that aspect, but to say engaging in internet debates is entirely worthless is wrong.

 

[troob]

Lukep, have you ever considered making an organization devoted to spreading freedom / libertarianism?

Make a membership site (call it "Freedom Fighters" or something catchy like that), build up some kind of system that gives people titles based upon the number of people they refer, get donations, make campaigns, scale, etc, etc

Also if you like that video you could pump views to it and front page it relatively cheaply (but IMO the guy sounds like a puss, needs a stronger voice).

I'm just putting it out there that no matter how oppressed you are, you still have the freedom to try and do something about it, you always will.

 

[REIMktg]

Really now, no one? :1orglaugh:

I think many people are interested in his ideas, including myself, but the massive influence the controlling class has is still too strong to compete.. The internet though is changing the landscape. It's no wonder they want to restrict it more and more.

Certainly though, running for local office or showing up at every politically related event in your city/township and voicing your opinion can definitely do more than arguing on an internet forum. I agree in that aspect, but to say engaging in internet debates is entirely worthless is wrong.

You are correct on both issues.

"Some" are interested in Paul, I find much of what he has to say unappealijng, as do many that hear him. It is not just the mainstream elite that are keeping him down, he is his own worst enemy. But he will always have a niche appeal.

Arguing on the internet is very worthwhile, many smart people learn and develop. I have matured many of my ideas being challenged even in STS.

Change can be made more than showing up to civic events. The power of marketing, the internet, everything is at our fingertips. An issue can be taken from nothing to the topic of discussion across the nation. Videos, marketing, even starting a PAC - its all available. There's a lot of special interest funding out there - tap into it. But be ready to build a coalition.

 

[lukep]

You can dissociate from the state if you choose*, but expect to be no longer welcome within it. You can also expect to be subject to its laws while within it.

*usually

LOL! Yeah, right. The rules and penalties for dissociating yourself from your country of birth are no joke, and getting worse all the time. They REALLY LIKE their tax money. Just ask Edwardo Savrin. Or are you one of the ones convinced he OWED all that money to the US Government because "he didn't build that?" :costumed-smiley-013

You both speak as if people would just realize the "truth" they'd come around to accepting anarchy as the obviously right path. And yet, there are many intelligent and reasonable people who have considered that point of view and rejected it.

My opinion is that those people, like the guy in that film you posted earlier, simply are not seeing all the playing pieces on the board yet.

Likely one of these two pieces just can't fit in his head because some conflicting information the government put there:

A. The scary, downward spiral we are in that is leading us into a complete 1984 society. (The obvious reason we need rid of government)

B. The fact that a Voluntaryist society would be so much better, safer, and more fair than what we have now. (The beautiful vision we share of a world without government)

Sure, me stating those two things don't make them proof, but those of us who do see it are convinced, and there are many millions of us now, growing daily.

Anyone rejecting this vision still has time to accept it later when it's not so hard to see the reason or the vision. I hope they just stay out of our way for now though, we're the only ones fighting for them.

There are 190-ish countries in the world. If you can't find one that suits you, perhaps consider finding some like-minded people and starting your own. Maybe you can get a kickstarter going to buy an island, or something.

All have governments. Yes, even Somalia. And if you raised an army and removed the government of one area, the surrounding governments would NOT let anarchy stand near to them, because of the idea of a prosperous anarchy area would threaten their income when their own citizens can see it working.

Everyone here is "Free" to make a difference in our current society. Nothing is stopping you from becoming an influence like a Soros or the Media.

Hellblazer has been telling all of you this for a long time, but no one wants to step up. Go ahead, bitch and moan and do nothing truly productive. So many here are all talk.

1. No Libertarians, Millions of us, have yet been able to step up and control a chunk of the media like Soros. Why is this so? Good question. Think about that for a bit. Maybe it will come to you.

2. We're not bitching and moaning though. We've all realized that spreading these Ideas until they are mainstream is the only way to win. What you're calling bitching is actually "stepping up."

 

[boatBurner]

Every thread that gets 1 person thinking is productive. Talk is how ideas spread. In the mean time, I'm looking out for #1, and that means grinding. I'm living well, state or not. If I can change a mind or two along the way all the better.

I hear a lot of accusations and naysaying about the government from you bros and outside communities. For a long time, I shrugged a lot of it off. I'm a Marine, I'm brainwashed, right?

Stepping further into these discussions, merely as an observer, has at least had me thinking. On my own, through my experiences in the military, I've formulated my own opinion about how this country operates. It's not the kind of opinion that would align with many of your observations, but it' definitely the kind of thinking that could result in non-judicial punishment.

Regardless, I'm truly lost at where to start in terms of sifting through the shit in front of me. Whistle blowers everywhere. State run media all over the place. I can't stand not being able to formulate my own opinion, but I'm on the hunt.

The government and the sheeples are a huge population. I don't like what I see, and I'm slowly turning against the grain. But this doesn't necessarily mean I'll side with a different mass of people for the sake of a common dislike.

Please, continue to share your opinions. It's thoughtful.

 

[lukep]

Do not talk to me about Ron Paul ... no one is interested in his ideas.

SIGGED!

Lukep, have you ever considered making an organization devoted to spreading freedom / libertarianism?

Wow, I guess no one around here has dropped any good libertarian links for you... I'd be one of millions doing the same thing, and some of them have some major funding, like Mises. Here's a few good places for you to start:

Lets see, there's the LP, America's third largest political party: Libertarian Party | Maximum Freedom, Minimum Government

There's Mises of course: Ludwig von Mises Institute : The Austrian School Is Advancing Liberty

The Cato institute: The Cato Institute

The Liberty Library: Online Library of Liberty - Front Page

Lew Rockwell is one of the LP forefathers: LewRockwell.com

As is Honest Ron of course: Ron Paul 2012 Official Campaign WebsiteRon Paul 2012 Presidential Campaign Committee

The Free State Project: Free State Project - Liberty in Our Lifetime

The Seasteading Institute: The Seasteading Institute | Our mission: To further the establishment and growth of permanent, autonomous ocean communities, enabling innovation with new political and social systems.

A great Aggregator for all things libertarian: http://dailyancap.com/

And some blogs I enjoy:

Adam Vs The Man | Anchoring the Internet 7 Days a Week
The Humble Libertarian
Josh Tolley Official Website | Inform - Educate - Motivate - Lead
Daily Anarchist - Anarcho-Capitalist Blog, Forum, and Store

This is about 1% of my bookmark folder for Libertarian AnCap sites... And I never went searching for any of them... They flood the web like few other subjects out there. The truth is everywhere online, it's only suppressed in the media.

I'm just putting it out there that no matter how oppressed you are, you still have the freedom to try and do something about it, you always will.

The guy in that video in the OP was jailed for a decade by the way... :thumbsup:

It is not just the mainstream elite that are keeping him down, he is his own worst enemy. But he will always have a niche appeal.

LULZ. Did Romney tell you that? Or was it Obomba?

Change can be made more than showing up to civic events. The power of marketing, the internet, everything is at our fingertips. An issue can be taken from nothing to the topic of discussion across the nation. Videos, marketing, even starting a PAC - its all available. There's a lot of special interest funding out there - tap into it. But be ready to build a coalition.

You have NO CLUE what you are talking about. The system here, both parties and all branches of government, are so incredibly corrupt that you'd pull the trigger on them yourself from the nearest clock tower if you had half of the information.

Here's just TODAY's news about how they're keeping Paul from what he rightfully won:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzuSDqam5T4]Reality Check: GOP refuses to seat Maine delegation unless they agree to "Compromise"? - YouTube[/ame]

So if Paul won 7 states, why would the GOP EVEN WANT to make sure he can't be nominated? Why would they want to tell seven states to go vote for Obomba? Not to mention the Paul voters from all other states... That makes no sense at all...

And we get stories like these so often that even you would be a Paulite if you just read a small fraction of them... He's clearly being smacked down illegally, there is nearly infinite evidence. There is also some pretty eyebrow-raising evidence that the MAJORITY of the voters DID vote for him in the republican primaries... Mathematically it is obvious, in fact.

You need to turn off your idiot box. You are believing their lies.

 

[wayn3]

I hear a lot of accusations and naysaying about the government from you bros and outside communities. For a long time, I shrugged a lot of it off. I'm a Marine, I'm brainwashed, right?

Stepping further into these discussions, merely as an observer, has at least had me thinking. On my own, through my experiences in the military, I've formulated my own opinion about how this country operates. It's not the kind of opinion that would align with many of your observations, but it' definitely the kind of thinking that could result in non-judicial punishment.

Regardless, I'm truly lost at where to start in terms of sifting through the shit in front of me. Whistle blowers everywhere. State run media all over the place. I can't stand not being able to formulate my own opinion, but I'm on the hunt.

The government and the sheeples are a huge population. I don't like what I see, and I'm slowly turning against the grain. But this doesn't necessarily mean I'll side with a different mass of people for the sake of a common dislike.

Please, continue to share your opinions. It's thoughtful.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iof5pRAIZmw]Guile Theme - YouTube[/ame]

 

[scottspfd82]

I'm a Marine, I'm brainwashed, right?

I was in the Air Force for 4 years. I spent a year in the Camp Sather/Liberty/Victory area of Baghdad near the flight line. When we were lucky we got to go to a little chow hall on a Marine outpost instead of eating MRE's. I can't remember the name of it now.

I'd say seeing what I saw, irregardless of branch, probably opened my eyes to what the state really stands for more than anything else. I won't get into it here but you see a lot of messed up shit, you see that the state places zero value on human life, you see the real reasons that you were put in that position, why your friends died, why we were occupying them... It'll piss you off eventually.

You're probably no more brainwashed than I ever was. And you'll see a lot of things that can wake you up and make you a lot more aware of what the system stands for than the masses who's belief system is shaped by what CNN tells them to believe.

 

[lukep]

Regardless, I'm truly lost at where to start in terms of sifting through the shit in front of me. Whistle blowers everywhere. State run media all over the place. I can't stand not being able to formulate my own opinion, but I'm on the hunt.

You sound like Adam Kokesh. This is a community he built of people like yourself, mostly ex-military who are pissed about swearing to the constitution but then betraying it because of our leaders:

Adam Vs The Man | Anchoring the Internet 7 Days a Week

Enjoy!

 

[boatBurner]

And you'll see a lot of things that can wake you up and make you a lot more aware of what the system stands for than the masses who's belief system is shaped by what CNN tells them to believe.

This. And it's tough, because there are very few people who understand this. I know more Marines and soldiers wide-awake than the civilians I've talked to. Granted, we're a bunch of lazy fucks who just want to be left alone at this point, but there is truly nothing like the campfire talks I've shared with guys I've served with. Going overseas, seeing barebone civilizations, deciphering orders, executing, and thinking about it afterwards... you might be well-read, but you'd be so lucky to find this kind of well-roundedness amongst your peers. I could go on and on about this, but I think I've made my point.

It was always funny to me to be deployed when some kind of media-worthy situation occurred, and to watch the news deliver it to the American people.

This is why I think news is bullshit. Not because I did any kind of online research or participated in any group discussions. I even think a lot of you guys are full of shit. It is what it is.

 

[Moxie]

The Amish have their own laws, which, if you do not follow, you may be excommunicated. So, you may be free to associate or dissociate at will from an Amish community, but within the community you are hardly free to do as you please.

But the same applies to a state. You can dissociate from the state if you choose*, but expect to be no longer welcome within it. You can also expect to be subject to its laws while within it. What's the difference between an Amish community with laws and territory, and a state with laws and territory?

*usually

Anarchy of the libertarian variety does not mean that people will not make rules for the property they own.

The absence of current governments does not mean that Burger King would suddenly let people take a shit in the middle of the restaurant. Without government they could actually end up having more rules, they could choose to only allow 30 year old gay webmasters into their building if they wanted.

The US government allows you to put naked pictures of yourself on the internet, Facebook does not. So in that way Facebook is less "free" than the government, but really it is not, because the key is that Facebook does not force people to use and pay for it.

I'm not an Amish expert, but I assume they homesteaded free areas of land, and then maybe bought more land as time went on, whereas non-voluntary governments use warfare and such to stake claim to large areas of land. Columbus stepped off the boat and said that all the land before him was property of Spain.

Every inch of land on the planet is staked claim to by governments. If everyone on the planet but yourself was Amish, they would have no problem with you doing your own thing, and they would trade with you and help you in other ways. They wouldn't demand things from you.

 

[jacky8]

What's stopping 12 insurance companies to merge in a single day and rape you all?

What makes you believe there will be competition in anarchy?

You noobs are hilarious

 

[shindig]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB2d-1PRvO4&feature=player_detailpage]The Billionaires' Tea Party - Trailer - YouTube[/ame]