How Would You Structure The Compensation For This Agreement?

AngryFiver

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Nov 14, 2014
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Client needs personal injury leads that are worth anywhere from $50 - $225, depending upon what the client situation is (in auto accident and needs surgery, etc). A form on their site that the user fills out gives them this info.

I want to charge a base fee for hourly work + commission for each type of lead handed over based on attorney's criteria. I will be given full transparency into what each lead is worth by email.

What would the experts on here charge as an hourly base pay + commission in this situation?
 


Straight monthly, or don't do it at all. Take it from me, these types of situations almost always end in disaster. Especially with personal injury lawyers.

Good luck bro.

I can 2nd this - I tried to do lead gen for PI lawyers a few years back. Would come in for a 2pm meeting and they'd make me wait 20+ minutes and would take phone calls during the meeting.

The egos were simply way to big. I didn't want to deal with people that thought I was far below them since they were a mighty PI lawyer. I just wanted to find a competent one that understood marketing and scaling a business but never even came close.

Additionally get paid up front. PI lawyers will not hesitate to stiff you every chance they get. They are almost always living on credit until that next big settlement comes and the bills get paid. Don't let yourself become one of their creditors.
 
Run of the mill PI cases recover faster than mass tort, inside of 18 months, so if you have a good relationship with the lawfirm involved you can reasonably structure it to include both an upfront flat amount, plus an indirect "percentage" of the eventual recovery. Assuming you trust the attorneys to take care of you on the backend, an upfront cost of several hundred bucks per lead, plus an off the books backend payout to you of 20-25 percent isn't a bad deal, they have to do all the heavy lifting and structure it carefully, but its worth the time if you can generate a decent number of quality leads.
 
Straight monthly, or don't do it at all. Take it from me, these types of situations almost always end in disaster. Especially with personal injury lawyers.

Good luck bro.

Yeah, I'd feel better about ditching the commission altogether. But how would you charge a monthly fee, what exactly do you charge, and for what deliverables?


And why is this better than doing an hourly fee on something like oDesk?


P.S. - BTW, for the other guy asking...this is paid advertising I'm doing, not SEO.
 
I can 2nd this - I tried to do lead gen for PI lawyers a few years back. Would come in for a 2pm meeting and they'd make me wait 20+ minutes and would take phone calls during the meeting.

The egos were simply way to big. I didn't want to deal with people that thought I was far below them since they were a mighty PI lawyer. I just wanted to find a competent one that understood marketing and scaling a business but never even came close.

Additionally get paid up front. PI lawyers will not hesitate to stiff you every chance they get. They are almost always living on credit until that next big settlement comes and the bills get paid. Don't let yourself become one of their creditors.

You got 100% of the money up front?

What was the deal exactly if you don't mind me asking?
 
Yeah, I'd feel better about ditching the commission altogether. But how would you charge a monthly fee, what exactly do you charge, and for what deliverables?


And why is this better than doing an hourly fee on something like oDesk?


P.S. - BTW, for the other guy asking...this is paid advertising I'm doing, not SEO.


Then take prepays and sell leads at high prices.

Why are you talking monthly at all versus just running it like a normal leadgen setup with buyers?

Your form, you post to them. Don't like it, find other buyers. That's the hard part, there are 100 "sorta country club successful" attorneys for every true powerhouse. You need many of these guys and managing them is a fucking nightmare.

That said with traction and producing a higher quality product than they're used to you'll quickly be overwhelmed with demand - more than you'll ever be able to fulfill.

The other issue- attorneys forms/websites/validation are all total shit, as well as their desire to call a lead more than once when they're paying you only on a revshare (or even CPL) is non existent. You also need to solve for this.

Treat them as little children who think they're important, and then profit to the moon.
 
Run of the mill PI cases recover faster than mass tort, inside of 18 months, so if you have a good relationship with the lawfirm involved you can reasonably structure it to include both an upfront flat amount, plus an indirect "percentage" of the eventual recovery. Assuming you trust the attorneys to take care of you on the backend, an upfront cost of several hundred bucks per lead, plus an off the books backend payout to you of 20-25 percent isn't a bad deal, they have to do all the heavy lifting and structure it carefully, but its worth the time if you can generate a decent number of quality leads.


Is there a more creative way to do this at scale without going the DC firm setup route? (For a non attorney)
 
Is there a more creative way to do this at scale without going the DC firm setup route? (For a non attorney)


The biggest issues are the fee-splitting rules in every State. While state bar rules vary state to state, one thing they all pretty much have is fairly strict rule prohibiting attorneys "splitting" fees with non-attorneys. Realtors have a similar situation, although usually not quite as restrictive.

Attorneys are allowed to pay "marketing fees", so most people trying to do what you and OP are describing try to set it that way. The issue is that it's very hard to make how much the "marketing fee" is change based on how much the attorney makes. That pretty much prevents making the fee as a "percentage" because it ties the amount the non-attorney gets to how-much the case is worth, which sounds like impermissible fee-splitting to most State Bars.

When attorneys try to skirt the line or get too aggressive with giving kickbacks or percentages to non-lawyers that is performance-based, they usually get turned in either by A)Other lawyers, who think they aren't playing fair, or B) The non-attorney they were splitting the fee with,when they get into some kind of later dispute about how much they should make. A non-attorney typically doesn't get into any trouble for taking a % from a lawyer, that's just typical performance-based marketing, but the attorney can get censured or disbarred for it. Plus, most attorneys are somewhat scared of getting anywhere near the line, so they avoid a lot of marketing arrangements that could actually be beneficial to both parties.

Charging a flat-rate per form filled on a site other than the actual attorney's is the most common. The affiliate/marketer typically is limited though, because they have to SEO or market a non-attorney site to collect the data, (while not holding that site out to be an actual attorney's site because that is considered unauthorized practice of law), Take that lead data and send it over to the attorney, and then hope the attorney gives them an upfront flat-rate kickback and then takes on the risk of that lead not panning out. Attorneys are resistant to doing it that way though, because they don't like to pay the upfront money for the lead, and then contact the lead who turns out to not be a good case.

Personally, I have an advantage, because I know Internet Marketing and can legally fee-split with other attorneys, which I do on mass tort cases. Most of the attorneys I talk to in that field like the idea of having "Internet wizards" generate traffic for them that is incredibly valuable, they just always want to pay out just a flat-fee, and only on leads that actually retain them, which forces the marketer to have to work a lot harder to generate quality leads even though they can't vet the leads themselves.

The cleanest way is almost always going to be just working with 1-2 attorneys that you completely trust, and set it up so there is some kind of flat-rate per referral upfront, and then maybe a backend "SEO/directory listing fee" they can pay later that is actually payment for a good lead that makes them money.
 
The biggest issues are the fee-splitting rules in every State. While state bar rules vary state to state, one thing they all pretty much have is fairly strict rule prohibiting attorneys "splitting" fees with non-attorneys. Realtors have a similar situation, although usually not quite as restrictive.

Attorneys are allowed to pay "marketing fees", so most people trying to do what you and OP are describing try to set it that way. The issue is that it's very hard to make how much the "marketing fee" is change based on how much the attorney makes. That pretty much prevents making the fee as a "percentage" because it ties the amount the non-attorney gets to how-much the case is worth, which sounds like impermissible fee-splitting to most State Bars.

I didn't realize it at the time, but this is probably why we were only able to collect a flat referral fee from a real estate brokerage that we did lead gen for.

@OP are they wanting to pay you on something you can track like leads delivered, or are they trying to pay you on leads closed?
 
The biggest issues are the fee-splitting rules in every State. While state bar rules vary state to state, one thing they all pretty much have is fairly strict rule prohibiting attorneys "splitting" fees with non-attorneys. Realtors have a similar situation, although usually not quite as restrictive.

Attorneys are allowed to pay "marketing fees", so most people trying to do what you and OP are describing try to set it that way. The issue is that it's very hard to make how much the "marketing fee" is change based on how much the attorney makes. That pretty much prevents making the fee as a "percentage" because it ties the amount the non-attorney gets to how-much the case is worth, which sounds like impermissible fee-splitting to most State Bars.

When attorneys try to skirt the line or get too aggressive with giving kickbacks or percentages to non-lawyers that is performance-based, they usually get turned in either by A)Other lawyers, who think they aren't playing fair, or B) The non-attorney they were splitting the fee with,when they get into some kind of later dispute about how much they should make. A non-attorney typically doesn't get into any trouble for taking a % from a lawyer, that's just typical performance-based marketing, but the attorney can get censured or disbarred for it. Plus, most attorneys are somewhat scared of getting anywhere near the line, so they avoid a lot of marketing arrangements that could actually be beneficial to both parties.

Charging a flat-rate per form filled on a site other than the actual attorney's is the most common. The affiliate/marketer typically is limited though, because they have to SEO or market a non-attorney site to collect the data, (while not holding that site out to be an actual attorney's site because that is considered unauthorized practice of law), Take that lead data and send it over to the attorney, and then hope the attorney gives them an upfront flat-rate kickback and then takes on the risk of that lead not panning out. Attorneys are resistant to doing it that way though, because they don't like to pay the upfront money for the lead, and then contact the lead who turns out to not be a good case.

Personally, I have an advantage, because I know Internet Marketing and can legally fee-split with other attorneys, which I do on mass tort cases. Most of the attorneys I talk to in that field like the idea of having "Internet wizards" generate traffic for them that is incredibly valuable, they just always want to pay out just a flat-fee, and only on leads that actually retain them, which forces the marketer to have to work a lot harder to generate quality leads even though they can't vet the leads themselves.

The cleanest way is almost always going to be just working with 1-2 attorneys that you completely trust, and set it up so there is some kind of flat-rate per referral upfront, and then maybe a backend "SEO/directory listing fee" they can pay later that is actually payment for a good lead that makes them money.

Very helpful thanks. I'll PM you in a bit, we're in similar waters. Looking at going the DC firm route in order to fee split and have it be kosher (attorney <firm> to attorney) for the real money leads and hold them.
 
Then take prepays and sell leads at high prices.

Why are you talking monthly at all versus just running it like a normal leadgen setup with buyers?

Your form, you post to them. Don't like it, find other buyers. That's the hard part, there are 100 "sorta country club successful" attorneys for every true powerhouse. You need many of these guys and managing them is a fucking nightmare.

That said with traction and producing a higher quality product than they're used to you'll quickly be overwhelmed with demand - more than you'll ever be able to fulfill.

The other issue- attorneys forms/websites/validation are all total shit, as well as their desire to call a lead more than once when they're paying you only on a revshare (or even CPL) is non existent. You also need to solve for this.

Treat them as little children who think they're important, and then profit to the moon.

What I would do Is push from the lead gen form to something like http://Asana.com then give them access to the queue or set it up to via zapier to send the data via email to them as well.

You need a copy of those emails to have any hope of getting paid accurately. Personal Injury lawyers and condo developers are egomanical assholes. Id strongly advise against any sort of commission based agreement where you aren't controlling all the data and they aren't paying you weekly for leads.
 
Run of the mill PI cases recover faster than mass tort, inside of 18 months, so if you have a good relationship with the lawfirm involved you can reasonably structure it to include both an upfront flat amount, plus an indirect "percentage" of the eventual recovery. Assuming you trust the attorneys to take care of you on the backend, an upfront cost of several hundred bucks per lead, plus an off the books backend payout to you of 20-25 percent isn't a bad deal, they have to do all the heavy lifting and structure it carefully, but its worth the time if you can generate a decent number of quality leads.

I ran into 2 problems with this.

1. In California you cannot get a % of the settlement as a non-lawyer so you need to do quite the run around to make a % commission structure work. One that gives the law firm plenty of leeway to fuck you on the huge deals.

2. When I tried to do things like "cheap/free leads up front pay me on the back-end" they did the shittiest job ever at following up on the leads. They would take days to call back leads submitted. I would think making money would be enough incentive to close but they would be lazy as hell if they didn't invest up front.

You got 100% of the money up front?

What was the deal exactly if you don't mind me asking?

I did not. Consequently 3 different California PI lawyers stiffed me low 4 figure amounts. Didn't bother pursing because wasn't worth my time and I knew they were broke jokes living on credit anyways desperate for that next 6-7 figures settlement.

I never managed to work out any deal I liked or that went well. Could never find a single/lawyer with a vision and the willingness to invest in it. These guys are used to spending maybe 1-3% of total revenue on marketing. The idea of spending 25% of revenue on marketing on cases they would never have gotten anyways just does not compute with them. It's not that they didn't have the margins or anything and honestly I'm not entirely sure what it was.

The entire endeavor made me realize most small businesses stay small because the person running them has no understanding how investing back into the business to grow it. The ones that do get it don't end up staying small for long. I made the mistake of thinking I could find small businesses and help them grow - my goal wasn't to set up contracts that would stay the same size 3 years later.

My problem was I simply took the entirely wrong approach I think. I wanted to find pretty much one firm to turn into the next Larry H Parker. They all shared the vision but were unwilling to invest into the business to get there. The settlement checks come and these guys piss it away faster than a 20 year affiliate marketer running diet rebills. It made me realize that age and social standing really don't have to correlate with finical maturity and discipline.

It was quite a learning experience. I also learned most California PI lawyers have tax problems. They don't even pay the estimated taxes often enough when those settlement checks come in - it's right off to Vegas or something.

So all in all I'm more a case study of what NOT to do.
 
@OP are they wanting to pay you on something you can track like leads delivered, or are they trying to pay you on leads closed?

Leads delivered. They left it up to me to make the first offer for compensation.

I still have yet to hear from anyone how much to charge and for what type of deal.

Someone...anyone...throw out a ballpark figure to be paid up front by the client and tell me why that's better than just charging them an hourly rate or a % of their spend on marketing.
 
whether you'll take returns, what the return period is, whether the leads are exclusive,whether the leads are limited to certain state/zip, how many fields the lead form requires, etc all have a pretty dramatic effect on what you can charge.

For mass tort leads, I've sold (and bought) between $200-$700, exclusive. PI specific to a state I've never directly sold, but I know of guys that pay $85-$150 for Cali PI cases that have filled in name/phone/email/injury details to a webform. You could also send them to an aggregator like TotalAttorneys, but they pay so little I don't know how anyone would make any money doing that route (<$40 per legit referral last I saw).

Every legal lead referral relationship is different , the key is finding the attorneys who you trust who "get it" and view it as a win-win partnership, but they aren't that easy to find...
 
One more note to add - in California generating the Spanish speaking leads could potentially be a money business. For the right lawyers these leads are very easy to close. So the leads can have great ROI since they could be cheaper to generate and higher value.

Just something to consider if you've got a good angle to get those.