Healthcare - Spiraling out of control

Just like it took the US Government to put a man on the moon in 1969. If it was left to private enterprise it wouldn't have happened until... it still hasn't happened. We've got private space flights but it only became economically viable recently, 40 odd years after your Government made it happen.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtBy_ppG4hY&]Whitey on the moon - gil scott-heron - YouTube[/ame]


A giant Dave Mustaine statue made of gold would be cool; forcing people to pay for it would not be. One might say that is the only way it could be built, but realize that if all Megadeth fans had to pay zero taxes, that would collectively be a large pool of extra money they would now have, which would make it easier for them to spend it on the statue if they so choose.
 


A giant Dave Mustaine statue made of gold would be cool; forcing people to pay for it would not be. One might say that is the only way it could be built, but realize that if all Megadeth fans had to pay zero taxes, that would collectively be a large pool of extra money they would now have, which would make it easier for them to spend it on the statue if they so choose.
Damn good way to put it, Mox!

I am glad that went to the moon and now have all of these spun-off technologies that came from it; but frankly I'd prefer to live in a free market and have the advantages that would come with that instead.
 
Why is that a good sign comrade?

Private investors investing billions means it's a sound business plan and not just a government spending willy nilly.

If it isn't profitable (positive result bearing) to build a network now privately, why do it? Why would you waste resources to build something for which there is not commensurate resources or demand?

You'll be hard pressed to find a private company willing to invest $37 billion, the largest telco in Australia is worth about that. There might be more money in oil drilling. How is it a waste and how is there no demand if the government's contribution will be fully paid back? the demand is there to make it profitable. Not to mention our fiscal budget is almost back into surplus, we're in a great position to pull it off.

Yes, the government is forcing something and you are going to free ride on it. So for you, it is all apples.

I'm not getting a free ride, I'll be paying to access it which in turn goes to pay off the government's contribution and the private investors contribution.

Again, you're making our argument. There was not enough private sector demand or resources to make this happen, so the government forcibly confiscated the resources and made it to be.

Great, I don't want to wait 20 years for fibre optic broadband. I'm glad my country has a strong economy and can invest in and hasten our technological advancement. They're going to open it up to private ISP's to compete on price too, what a splendid idea. We have a great record of well run state services like Australia Post. I wish the rail network was never privatised.

Is Google Maps profitable for Google? no? then why do it? what a bleak fucking future we'd have if profitability was the first and foremost consideration for any endeavor.

Maybe we have private flights now because there is finally a market for it. When the USG invests tax money into a program, it has a crowding out effect and reduces private sector investment.

I presume that means if you were in charge you would cut NASA funding right? given that there is no market demand for it apart from a few science geeks that want to know the secrets of the universe. Thank god you aren't in charge!
 
What a load of bullshit, if the free market isn't doing something it's because theres no money to be made in it or the risk is too high, not because it "isn't needed". Would the free market have landed a man on the moon and won the space race in 1969?

That's a terrible argument. Are you saying that landing on the moon, or winning the space race, were necessary?

No shit the free market wouldn't have tried to land on the moon in 1969. Why would they?
 
You sure have a strange definition of zero...

But I get it, you're still getting a seemingly great deal of health care for little cost.

As for the US health system...

Now I don't claim to know much about this particular topic, but if we did nationalize health care here in the US, I have a feeling the Corps. would be writing the policies, and we'd be more fucked than we currently are.

Yeah ok so not totally 'zero' (I'm not that bad at maths) ;) What I kinda meant was we didn't get lumped with a huge bill for like $15k or something for the care we received...so yeah you got what I meant.

@guerilla Yeah I guess its a form of welfare...my wife got the care she needed through our and other peoples health contributions, and others will get the care they need via the same system. Everyone pays less than in a private care system and is able to hopefully benefit when they need it...but yes, when you don't use the services you are funding someone else's care. Personally I have no problem with that idea.

Wasn't trying to present an argument, just relating our experience :)
 
Private investors investing billions means it's a sound business plan and not just a government spending willy nilly.
Or it is more corporatism, and the government money is basically a subsidy to big business.

You'll be hard pressed to find a private company willing to invest $37 billion, the largest telco in Australia is worth about that. There might be more money in oil drilling.
If there is no money for investment, that's a sign there isn't demand. Where there is a market demand, there are resources for investment.

How is it a waste and how is there no demand if the government's contribution will be fully paid back? the demand is there to make it profitable. Not to mention our fiscal budget is almost back into surplus, we're in a great position to pull it off.
Do you think before you write this stuff?

If there was demand, it would be done in the private sector. Also, you are not your government. The government are the political elites who rule you. They have a surplus because they are extracting more money from you and other private citizens, diminishing the positive effects of the private economy. It is a testament to their ability to propagandize that you are proud of your rulers for so efficiently looting you.

I'm not getting a free ride, I'll be paying to access it which in turn goes to pay off the government's contribution and the private investors contribution.
You are getting a free ride because if you could have paid for it, then it could have been done privately. No, you're benefiting from a system subsidized by corporate welfare.

Great, I don't want to wait 20 years for fibre optic broadband.
What you're really saying, is that you don't want to earn what you want, you want it now and you deserve to have it because you are demanding it despite your lack of means.

I'm glad my country has a strong economy and can invest in and hasten our technological advancement.
A glorious republic it is comrade!

Is Google Maps profitable for Google? no? then why do it? what a bleak fucking future we'd have if profitability was the first and foremost consideration for any endeavor.
All human action is profit driven. Humans are rational actors.

If you don't understand basic stuff like that, how do you expect to be successful in business?

I presume that means if you were in charge you would cut NASA funding right? given that there is no market demand for it apart from a few science geeks that want to know the secrets of the universe. Thank god you aren't in charge!
If I was in charge, I would resign. Being in charge is an immoral position when it comes with political force (violence).

That said, why should I fund NASA over anything else? Why should I decide to explore space when I should be solving cancer? Or increasing lifespans? Or feeding the world?

We live in a world of scarce resources, and every decision is a tradeoff.

The market allows people to express their preferences for resource allocation and adjust said allocations based on their utility (value, usefulness). Forcing things to be funded that people would not otherwise fund is theft. It is immoral, and can only be committed through violence, which is how taxes are collected.
 
@guerilla Yeah I guess its a form of welfare...my wife got the care she needed through our and other peoples health contributions, and others will get the care they need via the same system.
So either everyone is paying for their care, or they are getting other people to pay for their care.

If you're saying that you're going to pay 100% for the service you received EVENTUALLY, then it isn't welfare. If you are going to make use of services you will never pay full value for, it is welfare.

The question you should be asking, is why can't you afford these things? People did before socialized medicine. Why can they not afford them with so much better knowledge, access and development?

The answer I suspect, is that someone is making a buck off this, particularly when the person getting the service and the person paying for the service aren't accountable to one another...
 
Seeing as you ignored my earlier points I will carry on with what you are saying. Luke P & Ar Scion I will get round to arguing back when I have more time ;).

If there is no money for investment, that's a sign there isn't demand. Where there is a market demand, there are resources for investment.
Incorrect. Often there IS demand however the profit's made off the investment would likely be less than spending it on other areas. A health company that profits will aim to get the most money from what it does (obviously) so while it may be more competitive, it may not have the resources that a hospital needs. Lets use Public goods as an example. Take street lighting. Is there any investment by companies into street lighting? No because there are too many difficulties in how to charge people and also it would probably not be profitable. Is there demand for it? Hell yes. This is a case of market failure. People need the goods/ services but no companies are able to provide them, the government steps in here.
If there was demand, it would be done in the private sector.
Same as above.
Also, you are not your government. The government are the political elites who rule you. They have a surplus because they are extracting more money from you and other private citizens, diminishing the positive effects of the private economy. It is a testament to their ability to propagandize that you are proud of your rulers for so efficiently looting you.
Not true at all, I know many MP's (Members of Parliament) in my area. Perhaps this is the case in the USA but much, much less here.

You are getting a free ride because if you could have paid for it, then it could have been done privately. No, you're benefiting from a system subsidized by corporate welfare.
NHS is non-profit. US companies are for-profit. NHS even if inefficient doesn't add on large mark-ups, US companies do. Average life expectancy (78) minus free child healthcare (18) = 60 years of paying. 60* Average tax for average wage per year (£700) = £42000. This will be an overestimate because obviously the person wont work until 78. I guarantee the average American will spend more than that in their lifetime on healthcare, it's a bargain for everyone here because there is no mark-up.
What you're really saying, is that you don't want to earn what you want, you want it now and you deserve to have it because you are demanding it despite your lack of means.

Communications is infrastructure. Better infrastructure = healthier economy. Even extreme libertarians believe that, and no, a company will not invest in infrastructure in many areas. Sometimes if the government invests in the infrastructure for that area business will then flood in and the investment will have been worth it.

All human action is profit driven. Humans are rational actors.

If you don't understand basic stuff like that, how do you expect to be successful in business?
Wow, just wow. For someone who was lecturing everyone on Economics earlier you really have no idea. The MAIN problem with economics and market analysis is that humans are NOT rational. We are very irrational. If you don't understand basic stuff like that, how do you expect to be successful in business? (Right back at you ;) ) Oh and I would rather take a job that pay's a bit less but I enjoy than a job that pays a bit more that I hate. The majority of my actions are not profit driven, the majority of corporations actions are however.

If I was in charge, I would resign. Being in charge is an immoral position when it comes with political force (violence).

That said, why should I fund NASA over anything else? Why should I decide to explore space when I should be solving cancer? Or increasing lifespans? Or feeding the world?

We live in a world of scarce resources, and every decision is a tradeoff.
Very correct, this is why different beliefs in morals matters so much.

The market allows people to express their preferences for resource allocation and adjust said allocations based on their utility (value, usefulness). Forcing things to be funded that people would not otherwise fund is theft. It is immoral, and can only be committed through violence, which is how taxes are collected.

See Public goods. Also if the market was left free it would create a huge amount of negative externalities. Imagine the pollution and disasters created by companies trying to cut the costs without regulations? Think of how many drugs would be sold because there is a "demand" for them. Think of the monopolies and cartels created.


You might be interested in reading about Robert Owen. He started the co-operative over here quite a while back. What he discovered is that if he treated his mill-workers well, kept them healthy and educated them that in fact his profits vastly increased. A countries health is very closely linked to the health of the economy itself.
 
How Government Solved

How Government Solved the Health Care Crisis
Medical Insurance that Worked — Until Government "Fixed" It

by Roderick T. Long

Today, we are constantly being told, the United States faces a health care crisis. Medical costs are too high, and health insurance is out of reach of the poor. The cause of this crisis is never made very clear, but the cure is obvious to nearly everybody: government must step in to solve the problem.

Eighty years ago, Americans were also told that their nation was facing a health care crisis. Then, however, the complaint was that medical costs were too low, and that health insurance was too accessible. But in that era, too, government stepped forward to solve the problem. And boy, did it solve it!

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, one of the primary sources of health care and health insurance for the working poor in Britain, Australia, and the United States was the fraternal society. Fraternal societies (called "friendly societies" in Britain and Australia) were voluntary mutual-aid associations. Their descendants survive among us today in the form of the Shriners, Elks, Masons, and similar organizations, but these no longer play the central role in American life they formerly did. As recently as 1920, over one-quarter of all adult Americans were members of fraternal societies. (The figure was still higher in Britain and Australia.) Fraternal societies were particularly popular among blacks and immigrants. (Indeed, Teddy Roosevelt's famous attack on "hyphenated Americans" was motivated in part by hostility to the immigrants' fraternal societies; he and other Progressives sought to "Americanize" immigrants by making them dependent for support on the democratic state, rather than on their own independent ethnic communities.)

The principle behind the fraternal societies was simple. A group of working-class people would form an association (or join a local branch, or "lodge," of an existing association) and pay monthly fees into the association's treasury; individual members would then be able to draw on the pooled resources in time of need. The fraternal societies thus operated as a form of self-help insurance company.

Turn-of-the-century America offered a dizzying array of fraternal societies to choose from. Some catered to a particular ethnic or religious group; others did not. Many offered entertainment and social life to their members, or engaged in community service. Some "fraternal" societies were run entirely by and for women. The kinds of services from which members could choose often varied as well, though the most commonly offered were life insurance, disability insurance, and "lodge practice."

"Lodge practice" refers to an arrangement, reminiscent of today's HMOs, whereby a particular society or lodge would contract with a doctor to provide medical care to its members. The doctor received a regular salary on a retainer basis, rather than charging per item; members would pay a yearly fee and then call on the doctor's services as needed. If medical services were found unsatisfactory, the doctor would be penalized, and the contract might not be renewed. Lodge members reportedly enjoyed the degree of customer control this system afforded them. And the tendency to overuse the physician's services was kept in check by the fraternal society's own "self-policing"; lodge members who wanted to avoid future increases in premiums were motivated to make sure that their fellow members were not abusing the system.

Most remarkable was the low cost at which these medical services were provided. At the turn of the century, the average cost of "lodge practice" to an individual member was between one and two dollars a year. A day's wage would pay for a year's worth of medical care. By contrast, the average cost of medical service on the regular market was between one and two dollars per visit. Yet licensed physicians, particularly those who did not come from "big name" medical schools, competed vigorously for lodge contracts, perhaps because of the security they offered; and this competition continued to keep costs low.

The response of the medical establishment, both in America and in Britain, was one of outrage; the institution of lodge practice was denounced in harsh language and apocalyptic tones. Such low fees, many doctors charged, were bankrupting the medical profession. Moreover, many saw it as a blow to the dignity of the profession that trained physicians should be eagerly bidding for the chance to serve as the hirelings of lower-class tradesmen. It was particularly detestable that such uneducated and socially inferior people should be permitted to set fees for the physicians' services, or to sit in judgment on professionals to determine whether their services had been satisfactory. The government, they demanded, must do something.

And so it did. In Britain, the state put an end to the "evil" of lodge practice by bringing health care under political control. Physicians' fees would now be determined by panels of trained professionals (i.e., the physicians themselves) rather than by ignorant patients. State-financed medical care edged out lodge practice; those who were being forced to pay taxes for "free" health care whether they wanted it or not had little incentive to pay extra for health care through the fraternal societies, rather than using the government care they had already paid for.

In America, it took longer for the nation's health care system to be socialized, so the medical establishment had to achieve its ends more indirectly; but the essential result was the same. Medical societies like the AMA imposed sanctions on doctors who dared to sign lodge practice contracts. This might have been less effective if such medical societies had not had access to government power; but in fact, thanks to governmental grants of privilege, they controlled the medical licensure procedure, thus ensuring that those in their disfavor would be denied the right to practice medicine.

Such licensure laws also offered the medical establishment a less overt way of combating lodge practice. It was during this period that the AMA made the requirements for medical licensure far more strict than they had previously been. Their reason, they claimed, was to raise the quality of medical care. But the result was that the number of physicians fell, competition dwindled, and medical fees rose; the vast pool of physicians bidding for lodge practice contracts had been abolished. As with any market good, artifical restrictions on supply created higher prices — a particular hardship for the working-class members of fraternal societies.

The final death blow to lodge practice was struck by the fraternal societies themselves. The National Fraternal Congress — attempting, like the AMA, to reap the benefits of cartelization — lobbied for laws decreeing a legal minimum on the rates fraternal societies could charge. Unfortunately for the lobbyists, the lobbying effort was successful; the unintended consequence was that the minimum rates laws made the services of fraternal societies no longer competitive. Thus the National Fraternal Congress' lobbying efforts, rather than creating a formidable mutual-aid cartel, simply destroyed the fraternal societies' market niche — and with it the opportunity for low-cost health care for the working poor.

Why do we have a crisis in health care costs today? Because government "solved" the last one.
 
Very correct, this is why different beliefs in morals matters so much.
Right and wrong don't exist on sliding scales. It is not sometimes ok to murder, steal or rape. However, maybe you feel differently in Europe.

See Public goods.
Public goods is code for "I don't know anything about economics."

Also if the market was left free it would create a huge amount of negative externalities.
The government is the largest negative externality in any economy. The market solves issues of negative externalities with private property, the ONLY way to solve negative externalities.

Please don't introduce concepts you don't understand. It is a waste of your time and my time.

You might be interested in reading about Robert Owen. He started the co-operative over here quite a while back. What he discovered is that if he treated his mill-workers well, kept them healthy and educated them that in fact his profits vastly increased. A countries health is very closely linked to the health of the economy itself.
No one is arguing against health care or education. We're arguing that a free market, competition and personal liberty provide both in a superior form than standardized monopoly government thievery.

Robert Owen is making MY ARGUMENT.
 
Right and wrong don't exist on sliding scales. It is not sometimes ok to murder, steal or rape. However, maybe you feel differently in Europe.
Right and wrong do exist on a sliding scale. Does that mean stealing an apple deserves the same punishment as murder? Don't be ridiculous.
Public goods is code for "I don't know anything about economics."
Obviously my use of a standard economics topic shows the poor quality of my economics degree at one of the best universities in the world. Here's a little economics lesson for you:

HTML:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_goods

The government is the largest negative externality in any economy. The market solves issues of negative externalities with private property, the ONLY way to solve negative externalities.

Please don't introduce concepts you don't understand. It is a waste of your time and my time.
I can accept other people being ignorant. I will not accept hypocrisy however.

Market failure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read about it, here's a nice extract for you.

The actions of agents can have externalities, which are innate to the methods of production, or other conditions important to the market. For example, when a firm is producing steel, it absorbs labor, capital and other inputs, it must pay for these in the appropriate markets, and these costs will be reflected in the market price for steel. If the firm also pollutes the atmosphere when it makes steel, however, and if it is not forced to pay for the use of this resource, then this cost will be borne not by the firm but by society. Hence, the market price for steel will fail to incorporate the full opportunity cost to society of producing. In this case, the market equilibrium in the steel industry will not be optimal. More steel will be produced than would occur were the firm to have to pay for all of its costs of production. Consequently, the marginal social cost of the last unit produced will exceed its marginal social benefit.
Common examples of an externality is environmental harm such as pollution or overexploitation of natural resources.
No one is arguing against health care or education. We're arguing that a free market, competition and personal liberty provide both in a superior form than standardized monopoly government thievery.

Robert Owen is making MY ARGUMENT.

Actually every statement you have made leads back to the fact that you do not understand market failure. If you can read about market failure and still make the same points then go ahead, I will quote you the economics.
 
Sort of on topic:

Does anybody know who the futuristic looking southern guy is from the Mises institute? I saw a vid of him interviewing Thomas Woods the other day and wanted to email it to a friend and can't find it now. His style was full of awesome.
 
Right and wrong do exist on a sliding scale. Does that mean stealing an apple deserves the same punishment as murder? Don't be ridiculous.
What a pathetic and dishonest example. They aren't the same act.

Do you believe that stealing is moral, yes or no?

Obviously my use of a standard economics topic shows the poor quality of my economics degree at one of the best universities in the world. Here's a little economics lesson for you:

HTML:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_goods
So let me get this right. You're arguing against the market using Wikipedia, because you have an economics degree from "one of the best universities in the world"?

Why must public goods be provided publicly?

I can accept other people being ignorant. I will not accept hypocrisy however.
Then stop being a hypocrite. Give 100% of your income to the state. You have to fund those public goods, and remember, your countrymen are all entitled to a right to good health, so you should be personally funding every possible surgery and procedure to make them healthy.

C'mon comrade, stop being a hypocrite.

Market failure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually every statement you have made leads back to the fact that you do not understand market failure. If you can read about market failure and still make the same points then go ahead, I will quote you the economics.
Market failure is nonsensical term. In order for the market to fail, it has to not meet some objective standard, but there are no objective standards for value. Or did you miss some classes on epistemology?

I'll be a lot more impressed with your economics degree from "one of the best universities in the world" when you stop sourcing Wikipedia as a proxy in argument, and specifically and personally address the arguments made against your position.

That is, if you're not going to be a hypocrite.

After all, we can tolerate ignorance, even from people with economics degrees from "one of the best universities in the world".


Market Failure: http://mises.org/daily/1035

Public Goods: http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Public_goods
 
What a pathetic and dishonest example. They aren't the same act.

Do you believe that stealing is moral, yes or no?


So let me get this right. You're arguing against the market using Wikipedia, because you have an economics degree from "one of the best universities in the world"?

Why must public goods be provided publicly?


Then stop being a hypocrite. Give 100% of your income to the state. You have to fund those public goods, and remember, your countrymen are all entitled to a right to good health, so you should be personally funding every possible surgery and procedure to make them healthy.

C'mon comrade, stop being a hypocrite.


Market failure is nonsensical term. In order for the market to fail, it has to not meet some objective standard, but there are no objective standards for value. Or did you miss some classes on epistemology?

I'll be a lot more impressed with your economics degree from "one of the best universities in the world" when you stop sourcing Wikipedia as a proxy in argument, and specifically and personally address the arguments made against your position.

That is, if you're not going to be a hypocrite.

After all, we can tolerate ignorance, even from people with economics degrees from "one of the best universities in the world".


Market Failure: The Market Failure Myth - D.W. MacKenzie - Mises Daily

Public Goods: Public goods - MisesWiki

G, you and me share the same position on this matter.

But I think you're taking things a little too personally.

I'd love to see a proper rebuttal of the notion of market failure. Ie,

"Market failures can be viewed as scenarios where individuals' pursuit of pure self-interest leads to results that are not efficient – that can be improved upon from the societal point-of-view."

The question of value does not come up here. Rather, it's a question of market logistics, where scenarios arise that prohibit the most efficient interactions.

If you acknowledge that this exists, then you acknowledge that markets are by no means perfect.

In fact, in the very blog post you quoted (D.W. MacKenzie's The Market Failure Myth), he acknowledges the imperfections of the market.
 
I'd love to see a proper rebuttal of the notion of market failure. Ie,

"Market failures can be viewed as scenarios where individuals' pursuit of pure self-interest leads to results that are not efficient – that can be improved upon from the societal point-of-view."
How do you calculate efficiency?

That ^^ is why I don't even touch claims like "market failure". They are based on a false premise, and the burden of proof is on the person promoting the theory, not on me to debunk it.

The question of value does not come up here. Rather, it's a question of market logistics, where scenarios arise that prohibit the most efficient interactions.
I will ask again, how do you calculate efficiency? What is efficiency without values?

In fact, in the very blog post you quoted (D.W. MacKenzie's The Market Failure Myth), he acknowledges the imperfections of the market.
Who claimed the market was perfect?
 
Ar Scion

Something else for you to chew on.

Self-interest is necessary to have any conception of efficiency.

"Societal point of view" is another bizarre idea. Society is an abstraction, we exist as individuals, not groups. We group individuals as a means of classification, for convenience and ease, but that doesn't mean that groups actually exist as self-interested entities.
 
Then stop being a hypocrite. Give 100% of your income to the state. You have to fund those public goods, and remember, your countrymen are all entitled to a right to good health, so you should be personally funding every possible surgery and procedure to make them healthy.

Your free market health care system is fucked and you know it. Your countrymen are being bankrupted, declined payment and declined cover because there's more money to be made not helping people. Even with all the free market competition between HMO's, they still all fuck people over. There's shareholders to keep happy, and bigger bonuses for staff that save the company the most money (by denying coverage to paying customers).

A sad example is Ron Paul's 2008 campaign manager who died uninsured with a $400,000 hospital bill because he couldn't get\afford insurance due to a terminal pre-existing illness. Luckily they could use Ron Paul's email list to leverage donations from people, but how many aren't so lucky?

You can argue until your blue in the face, but the fact is people living in countries with socialised medicine live longer, healthier lives. Is it worth the 2% levy on my tax bill? fucken A it is. I really can't comprehend how you could argue against that. I understand you have this dream of a pure free market, but you need to open your eyes to the reality around you.