Governments = Useless? Always?

lukep, have you ever even been outside of the US? And I don't mean a weekend getaway to Mexico, or a one week vacation to Ibiza. I mean, have you ever wandered around the streets of large cities and/or villages of a 3rd world country, bullshitted with the locals over a few beer, got your mind around how they view the world, and so on?
Yes. To all of that.

I've spent half a year backpacking 21 countries in Europe and I've lived in Thailand off and on for a decade now. I only get medical attention in London or Bangkok because I know how much better it is in those two places. Any of that count in your book?

In Europe I see more of a socialist acceptance of course but the people there still believe in Liberty. You don't seem to... Not for any real liberty.
 


You guys constantly railing against government should go live in Mozambique or somewhere for 6 months, then come back. Trust me, you'll be doing alot less bitching,

So because it might be worse somewhere else, one shouldn't try to improve where they currently live?

and will be more grateful for the basic services that government does provide


why-they-need-us.jpg


At the moment, you guys don't seem to have the slightest clue as to what the government does provide

I'm very aware. That's why I want as little government as humanly possible.

And please note, WE are the government.

Ignorance is bliss.
 
Or, you can keep arguing in this thread about whether history provides irrefutable evidence of causality.
Historical materialism is the most obvious example of how Marxism has permeated education and society, rendering men almost completely unable to think rationally.
 
Marxism has permeated education and society, rendering men almost completely unable to think rationally.
Amen.

When you add this fact together with the fact of mankind's evolution towards stupidity (effect demonstrated in the clip below) I cannot escape the sad fact that the majority of mankind will never, ever, become free.

Sadly, if any human ever achieves true freedom again, it's going to be in something like a seastead or a moonstead, and only then for a few decades at most.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXRjmyJFzrU]Idiocracy Intro - YouTube[/ame]
 
I hereforewith officially give up trying to show anyone here how the world could be better with anarchy or even just libertarians in charge.

this pledge lasted about 2 minutes, lol.

if we don't have the "imagination" to envision the anarchist utopia, maybe thats because its IMAGINARY???

no, wait...i found a photo of you and guerilla living in your anarchist utopia

0e18bd5510d384c9bde50bfd46a31107.jpg
 
I am not sure Feser is much more qualified, most of his arguments have been torn up by better men than me.

http://libertarianpapers.org/articles/2009/lp-1-34.pdf

Did you even bother to read those links? If you had, you might've seen Feser's response to Casey's critique. It's seems there's plenty of 'tearing up' to go around.


You're probably not going to be able tojust Google anything worth debating me over, I have several years and many hundreds hours into developing a philosophy of rationality and liberty.

Oh, okay then. I didn't realize you were such an accomplished philosopher. Care to link some of the philosophical treatises you've authored?

As long as people deny logic (that is, to embrace cognitive dissonance) no philosophy will be defensible.

Yes, because you are clearly much more qualified than anyone else to determine what is and what is not a logical philosophical argument. :rolleyes:

It should be obvious that there is little consensus in philosophy; you believing that your "several years and many hundreds of hours" of philosophizing has given you better insight than people that have spent their life and careers at it is simply delusional.
 
this pledge lasted about 2 minutes, lol.
Um, I didn't say I'd leave, I said I'd stop trying to convince the trolls.

if we don't have the "imagination" to envision the anarchist utopia, maybe thats because its IMAGINARY???
So was the friggin lightbulb before Edison invented it. :thefinger:

no, wait...i found a photo of you and guerilla living in your anarchist utopia
Har har. Troll. :485:
 
It would be interesting to see who in this thread considers themselves a libertarian, and who considers themselves an anarchist. Seems a few people are confused. Or is that some consider themselves anarchists willing to accept libertarianism simply as it is a better arrangement than our current system of government? Genuinely interested in this..

i am willing to admit i am more of a Constitution Republican than an anarchist, and if a libertarian has to be an anarchist, there aren't many of them out there (sorry guys, RP included). i probably lazily use libertarian to differentiate myself from the mainstream. i don't live in the waste of time make believe land of philosophy and dreams of Seasteading, aka doing on a raft what has never been done on land. but of course, i'm not "logical" because i don't agree with luke and borilla 100%.
 
If you reread my post on the social contract, that should answer your question. Here it is:



In short, you are required to pay taxes because most of us want you to and expect you to. We do not trust you enough to pay your share on your own because many humans are greedy. If all people aren't required to pay their share, many people would pay nothing. To avoid this, we as a society require you to pay through a tax that way nobody has to wonder if their neighbor is paying their share. If you don't like it, you have to forgo use of our collective lands and services that we also administer through our taxes. Since we collectively provide the defense of this territory in whole, you have to leave the territory. You also can't drive on our roads or use any other services that we have collectively agreed to administer this way.

So the purpose is to force certain people to pay for what they don't want to pay for?

Social contracts are not laws. People must freely consent to contracts for them to be legally valid.

We can only leave one government for another. Laws still apply in international waters. If you leave on a cruise ship and they allow gambling once into international waters, that is because the ship's port of call allows gambling.

The seasteader people are already planning to have to pay to register with Panama or wherever. Technically, they won't be free or sovereign, but will be part of Panama.
 
Did you even bother to read those links? If you had, you might've seen Feser's response to Casey's critique. It's seems there's plenty of 'tearing up' to go around.
For a guy not qualified to debate, you sure seem to think that Google has armed you well enough to tell me who to read.

Did you even know Edward Feser existed 5 days ago?

Oh, okay then. I didn't realize you were such an accomplished philosopher.
Sure you did, that is why you bowed out of the debate.

Care to link some of the philosophical treatises you've authored?
Logical fallacy again, ad hominem...

Yes, because you are clearly much more qualified than anyone else to determine what is and what is not a logical philosophical argument. :rolleyes:
Logic simply is. It doesn't require me or any expertise. It just requires the people in the debate to not post things which are contradictory.

You posted a lot of contradictory stuff, then you wouldn't respond when I called you on it, then you bowed out and sourced arguments that are just as poor on logic, and now you are trying some bizarre criticism of me, without criticizing my position substantively.

I'm not phased, and I doubt anyone reading is impressed, so what exactly is your end game? More wasted posts in an argument you're not prepared to make with a coherent argument?

You tell me bro.

It should be obvious that there is little consensus in philosophy; you believing that your "several years and many hundreds of hours" of philosophizing has given you better insight than people that have spent their life and careers at it is simply delusional.
I'm not looking for a consensus, I am looking for people who are rational. A philosophy that is irrational, specifically illogical, is in my opinion, not worth much. YMMV.
 
I know that wasn't directed at me, but fucking how arrogant of you to make a declaration like that.
Was it arrogant or a statement of fact? Can you indicate what EXACTLY was arrogant about it? Should I deny or be ashamed I have spent a lot of time studying this topic, and might have a more nuanced view than some bloke on a forum Googling for gotcha articles and quotes?

Not to mention the fact I have been articulating these views here for several years, and have a record on the topic.

I spent just under 7 years of my life and thousands of hours dedicated to studying various religions of the world, but the Abrahamic ones in particular - yet I would never make a ridiculous comment like that to someone with an opposing viewpoint to mine.
That's your call. If you are good at what you do, or you feel confident about your knowledge, why should you be ashamed of it? Why shouldn't you be willing to back up your beliefs and opinions by standing up for them, and endorsing their superiority?

You're welcome to be modest of course. Of course, you weren't very modest when you offered up your experience as a contrast, were you? ;)

Must be nice being able to outwit even Google.
I am not even sure what this means.

Yet another arrogant remark exposing more bravado on your part, than actual facts.
Perhaps you should go back and read the entire thread before posting silly stuff like this. There is a record of this, and many other debates.

Your logic has lead you to anarchy, yet in real life anarchy has always failed.
Anarchy works great in my life. It also works great in your life. You're just unaware you exist in various states of anarchy socially.

Interesting example of being a rigorous logician...
Is there anyone on your side of the debate who understands logic, and why it is important?
 
i don't live in the waste of time make believe land of philosophy and dreams of Seasteading, aka doing on a raft what has never been done on land.
Peter Thiel was a founder of Paypal, and heads up the fund which was the first investor in Facebook. He dreams about seasteading.

You could probably try hard all of your life, and not equal 1/100 of his contribution to the human race.

but of course, i'm not "logical" because i don't agree with luke and borilla 100%.
You're not logical if your philosophy or opinions are contradictory.

You haven't told us anything about your philosophy except you like the Constitution and you seem to think you know something about Ron Paul, although it wasn't apparent you have studied any of his books or the sources he draws on and endorses.

I love debating Constitutionalists because they are usually the easiest to get over to anarchism. High success rate with that group.

Of course, those are people who actually understand the Constitution and can distinguish between a federalist and an anti-federalist.
 
I've spent half a year backpacking 21 countries in Europe and I've lived in Thailand off and on for a decade now. I only get medical attention in London or Bangkok because I know how much better it is in those two places. Any of that count in your book?
No fair Luke. Only Matt was supposed to have traveled and lived overseas in this thread. How else is he supposed to beat you over the head with,

"You don't know how bad it is in other countries"

over and over again.

I will abstain from telling him about my travels so as not to completely pull the rug on an empirical argument that was fear mongering at its best.
 
Nope, that's just you Americans who get fucked on that one.
I am not an American.

Not sure how it is in the US, but in Canada at least, the cops don't generally care unless you're selling. Back in my younger days when I actually smoked pot, we never gave a single thought to the cops. I was caught several times with pot, and the cops never once did anything.
It is still illegal to peacefully ingest a natural substance in Canada. How is this fair or rational government?

Because it's a small world, and all the land is already spoken for, basically. You can easily own land though. Granted, you'll have to pay property tax, but on the flip side, I'm assuming you don't want to put a raging forest fire out yourself.
Forest fires don't apply to everyone, and you don't need property taxes to fight a fire. Property taxes are a lien.

Incorporation is by no means necessary to establish a wealthy, lucrative, and world-wide organization. Take the various mafias around the world, for example.
So you are now equating Walmart to the mafia? Please tell me it is because they sell frozen pizza.

Sorry, I meant Nigeria, not Somalia. Oil companies are robbing the people blind of their oil, for one example.
So then, your argument that corporations ruined Somalia, or that anarchy will lead to corporate rule (since it hasn't in Somalia) isn't valid, right?

Too often, people here are confusing anarchy with a lack of order. Order comes from social relationships, not from the fist, the club, threats, government or corporations. Order is what we do socially, naturally.

When two neighbors share a hedgerow between their houses, and maintain it without conflict, specifically violence, that is an order. And it is done voluntarily, without anyone hurting or coercing anyone else.

Likewise, when Canada and the Asia-Pacific countries sit down to negotiate regional policy and trade, that is anarchistic. They order themselves socially based on their mutual self interest. They don't bring guns into the room and fight each other until only one faction or country remains.

Anarchy is simply an-archy. "Without rulers". The notion that anarchy is disorder is something perpetuated by popular fiction and government schools. And there is no great conspiracy why the rulers wouldn't want people to consider a world without rulers. It's like the myths of the wild, wild west which are almost totally a 20th century Hollywood creation.

I'm no econimist, but decreasing the purchasing power of the middle class also increases unemployment. Which hurts the economy more in the long-run?
You just avoided my explanation of how purchasing power is created. It comes from production, not legislation.

The various governments of the west could legislate $100 an hour minimum wages, and it wouldn't make people more wealthy. Prices would just rise to the new measure to compensate.

That's one of the fundamental issues in this thread. You can't paint stripes on a donkey to make him a zebra.

We can't take a dangerous, irrational human being, and vote him into government, and he becomes an angel.

We can't write a bunch of words on parchment, call it a Constitution or founding document, and suddenly everyone who swears an oath to it is bound to it without any free will to do differently.

We can't pass a law that people earn "X" wage, and suddenly they become richer, any more than we can get the central bank to print more money to make everyone richer.

Miracles belong in the bible. They don't happen in parliament or congress.
 
You're talking fantasy, we're talking reality. That's the difference. Like it or not, you're going to have to get used to the reality.
I've stated this before, but it looks like I need to state it again.

Simply asserting that your perspective is drawn from reality, implying, or in this case explicitly claiming that Luke is somehow operating out of his mind in a fantasy, isn't an argument. It's actually just a weak attempt to discredit an argument by claiming it is invalid BECAUSE.

We all live in reality, and the opinions of some of us are no less or more real then the opinions of others.

This is where logic becomes important, because while we can have conflicting opinions and that doesn't invalidate them as opinions, we cannot have conflicting facts. 2 + 2 cannot be equal to 4 and not equal to 4 at the same time.

Instead of making statements about reality, implying ones argument is more factual, simply present the facts, and let [sic] reality speak for itself.
 
Humans behave illogically.

This statement illustrates that you don't understand what guerilla is saying. How humans behave is irrelevant in a discussion on whether an argument is logical or not. Do you know what logical fallacies are? Most of the pro-government people on here, including you, are making arguments based on logical fallacies. There is a difference between the position an argument takes and whether the argument logically supports that position. For all we know, your position could be correct, but your arguments to support that position are not based on logic. I'll give a few examples below from your post:

Arrogant.

Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I could point to countless people that have spent their whole lives and hold doctorates, yet come to completely different conclusions than you do.

Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like I said, society is like quantum mechanics, and you're trying to oversimplify the way you think people should behave.

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've seen several members on here be so impressed that they just defer to you on these matters, I guess because they don't know any Latin phrases.

Based on his posts, guerilla obviously has the patience to respond to consistently illogical, contradictory arguments. I usually don't participate heavily in these discussions because I don't have the patience. In fact, I probably won't respond if you reply to this post. :cool:
 
I wouldn't be surprised if you don't respond, since you haven't actually added anything to this thread, have you?

cziffra definitely has added to this thread (his signal-to-noise ratio tends to be very high). For one thing, he presented numerous logical fallacies you have committed. You seem not to recognize doing so, or refuse to admit it. Either way, it makes it very difficult to move forward.

I'm not looking for a debate with you, or to trade barbs. I know a rabbit hole when I see one. But it's worth pointing out that the logical fallacies in your posts are obvious from the sidelines.
 
Jesus H Christ man!

The Logic is for the RULES OF DEBATE! -NOT the friggin' subject matter.

No one is debating here that humans are illogical. You've got your wires crossed and can't seem to see what anyone else here is talking about.

Do us all a favor now and go start reading again from the top of the page and keep in mind that whenever someone like Guerilla is talking about Logic; he's talking about using logic to debate rationally, not create an Anarchy.


@cziffra: Thank you. We "lurkers" seemed to need a voice today. Good job.