Food Inc. (Must See Film)

[guerilla]

I'm referring to the type of lobbying where offers and incentives are made to the politicians.

What do you think government is? The first greek democracies understood this, which is why they killed or exiled any politician who engaged in any corruption (what most politicians get away with every day now).

Also something needs to be done about politicians owning stock whose value is effected by decisions they make in office.

As long as one class of people has power over another, that power group will always be the focus of lobbying and the breeding ground for corruption.

If you genuinely want to make politics less corrupt, reduce its power.

 

[Nemesis]

Has anyone watched last weeks Penn and Teller Bullshit on Organic Food?

 

[WickedJoe]

As long as one class of people has power over another, that power group will always be the focus of lobbying and the breeding ground for corruption.

If you genuinely want to make politics less corrupt, reduce its power.

The world doesn't favor weak government (reduced power). That's why all anarchist societies failed. It's even why the U.S. became more like one strong united country than a collection of weaker sovereign individual states.

If you genuinely want to make politics less corrupt, make it 100% transparent and create and enforce laws vs corruption.

Anyway, of course no gov will ever be perfect, but it could prob be a lot better.

 

[guerilla]

The world doesn't favor weak government (reduced power).

You mean that people are easily lead by great speakers and celebrities.

That's why all anarchist societies failed.

There have only ever been a handful of anarchist societies, for very short periods of time. The internet is the longest lasting modern incarnation of an anarchist society.

If you genuinely want to make politics less corrupt, make it 100% transparent and create and enforce laws vs corruption.

The incentive for government to investigate and prosecute itself doesn't exist. If I put you in charge of judging yourself, how objective would you be?

I suspect you would never send yourself to jail. You would never force yourself to be 100% transparent.

 

[WickedJoe]

There have only ever been a handful of anarchist societies, for very short periods of time. The internet is the longest lasting modern incarnation of an anarchist society.

Internet is nothing like a true anarchist society (ie no real government). The internet, every wire, and every surfer on it lives within the protection of real governments. The internet might be an anarchy for the mind, but that's about it.

The incentive for government to investigate and prosecute itself doesn't exist. If I put you in charge of judging yourself, how objective would you be?

I suspect you would never send yourself to jail. You would never force yourself to be 100% transparent.

No, the incentive for all of that exists for some people. It just doesn't exist for some criminal career politicians. My guess is there are actually quite a few people who'd stand up and try to do some real good w/out any strings attached.

If i were to go political, I'd definitely allow 100% transparency of my finances and everything else. I wouldn't send myself to jail, but no one would ever be expected to send themselves to jail. That's what transparency is for.. so others can send you to jail if you do something wrong.

 

[Nemesis]

This kind of mixed market with democracy is the best thing we have. Anarchy is not freedom, it's basically giving all power to stronger and more influential people. Anarchistic and socialistic societies must be highly disciplined to work properly which is impossible considering the fact that we are not rainbow unicorns but humans. Selfish, greedy humans...

You mean that people are easily lead by great speakers and celebrities.

Sad but true. Marketing is the most powerful tool ever and you can't do anything about it. But with transparency that comes with internet, we can distinguish harmful ideas from harmless ones...

There have only ever been a handful of anarchist societies, for very short periods of time. The internet is the longest lasting modern incarnation of an anarchist society.

You can't compare countries with computer networks.

The incentive for government to investigate and prosecute itself doesn't exist. If I put you in charge of judging yourself, how objective would you be?

I suspect you would never send yourself to jail. You would never force yourself to be 100% transparent.

With internet it's much more easier to keep tracks on governments which leads to efficient societies and less corruption. And government is not centralized but divided into many different offices which are lead by different people from different parties so no one can be a dictator. (this is true for highly developed countries such as USA, Canada, EU member states, Japan, Australia etc, however other countries are moving into that direction).

 

[pharmhand]

Based on the trailer, the movie looks like a summary of Pollan's book, Omnivore's Dilemma. I wonder whether the movie actually covers any new ground.

 

[guerilla]

Internet is nothing like a true anarchist society (ie no real government).

Of course it is. Anarchy is not the absence of government. Anarchy is the absence of involuntary government.

I wouldn't send myself to jail, but no one would ever be expected to send themselves to jail. That's what transparency is for.. so others can send you to jail if you do something wrong.

You completely spoke past my point. The government is the one responsible for sending themselves to jail. They have a monopoly on law and justice. No one else is allowed to convict and incarcerate.

 

[guerilla]

This kind of mixed market with democracy is the best thing we have.

Nonsense. A mixed economy is just soft socialism. Capitalism is an absolute. Socialism is not.

Anarchy is not freedom, it's basically giving all power to stronger and more influential people.

Look around.

Anarchistic and socialistic societies must be highly disciplined to work properly which is impossible considering the fact that we are not rainbow unicorns but humans. Selfish, greedy humans...

I love this fallacy. Because we are selfish and greedy, we give some selfish and greedy people absolute power over us. Pretty smart hunh?

What was my line? Trusting a politician is like hiring a child molester to babysit. Something like that.

You can't compare countries with computer networks.

Governments are not countries. Countries are geography, property, culture. History, family, relationships. Identity.

With internet it's much more easier to keep tracks on governments which leads to efficient societies and less corruption.

Sure, because information can be disseminated outside the captured mainstream news networks which basically read off press releases and do very little investigative journalism.

 

[WickedJoe]

Of course it is. Anarchy is not the absence of government. Anarchy is the absence of involuntary government.

Anarchy is both. It has multiple definitions.
But I'd like to see your version of anarchist society stand up to any other government on earth. It wouldn't.

I'd really like this sort of anarchist society too. But I stopped believing in the Easter Bunny long ago. It's a pipe dream.

You completely spoke past my point. The government is the one responsible for sending themselves to jail. They have a monopoly on law and justice. No one else is allowed to convict and incarcerate.

I didn't speak past your point. You have to admit that we ELECT people to power here right? So the government is us. There are all types of people. Some are corrupt, some are idealistic, etc.
People move in and out of "the government".

Look dude, the people in the government have resisted change (not Obama change ) more times than we can count. But it's happened many times because we fucking shoved it down their throat. 100% transparency is possible. Old power will hate it, new power will just accept it.

---
Edit: Also I cant let you get away with comparing the Internet to a true physical anarchist society. There's no comparison man. Go outside and get some air.

 

[Nemesis]

Nonsense. A mixed economy is just soft socialism. Capitalism is an absolute. Socialism is not.

Socialism is as absolute as capitalism is. And there are only a few countries that have socialism and I can name North Korea and Cuba at this time. Sweden is not a socialistic country. It is a mixed economy but more socialistic than USA. You can say that mixed economies are just soft socialism, but you can also say that they are just soft capitalism. And believe me, socialism is very bad thing. I was born in exYugoslavia which was socialistic country and the only reason why it survived for 40 years is good will from western countries such as USA that offered cheep loans as exchange for not working with Soviets.

This shit that you Americans call socialism is not real socialism. It's just a bullshit phrase that idiots from FOX news use to scare rednecks into voting Republicans. Socialism is complete absence of free market.

Look around.

If there was no police or no government to set rules, what would stop me to come armed to your house, take everything you have and use that goods to fund my own private army? (btw, I wouldn't do that, but I bet there is someone out there who is capable of doing that shit)

Every four or five years you have an election, in other systems you do not. In socialism, there was the same group of people and if you even said that they sucked, you'd end up in prison or at some camp. Some of my relatives ended up here just for declaring that they don't consider themselves Yugoslavs but Croats.

I love this fallacy. Because we are selfish and greedy, we give some selfish and greedy people absolute power over us. Pretty smart hunh?

Yes, we are selfish. We want money. Would you be here if you don't want money? Fuck no, you would be partying somewhere. And believe me, if there was no rich or poor, very few people will even try to get some education or work hard. I've seen it happened.

What was my line? Trusting a politician is like hiring a child molester to babysit. Something like that.

Yea, everything is so dramatic and world is so cruel.

Governments are not countries. Countries are geography, property, culture. History, family, relationships. Identity.

For fuck sake, governments are here to redistribute wealth in forms of healthcare, security etc. They set rules to preserve as much economic and individual freedom as they can. They regulate markets. Just because you're frustrated about some of their mistakes it doesn't mean that they are not needed.

Internet is just a form of media that is used by people to exchange information. Just like telephone. It doesn't need government! For fuck sake, why am I telling you the difference between countries and the Internet? HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE???

 

[oknetwork]

Absolute socialism, as well as absolute capitalism exist only on paper. In reality all countries are mix of to. Hell, here in US - we have Social security.
In pure capitalism you are not supposed to have any social benefits or regulations. Everything should be based on "free trade". No free state schools, no regulation on gasoline prices, no food stamps....

 

[guerilla]

Edit: Also I cant let you get away with comparing the Internet to a true physical anarchist society. There's no comparison man. Go outside and get some air.

Anarchism as a political philosophy is self-rule. The internet, by and large, operates in a state of panarchy. Transient social, cultural and legal memberships. There is no prevailing monopoly legal system online, and thus everyone operates on basic ideas like property rights, voluntarism and mutual aid.

 

[guerilla]

Internet is just a form of media that is used by people to exchange information. Just like telephone. It doesn't need government! For fuck sake, why am I telling you the difference between countries and the Internet? HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE???

It was hard to find anything in your rant worthy of response.

Countries are not political systems. Countries are not governments.

The internet as a medium, facilitates all sorts of social and commercial relations beyond the prevailing legal systems of many states. That is why people in totalitarian governments twitter political news that is suppressed domestically.

That is why people publish blogs anonymously. Not just because they like having a name like hulkhogan1973, but because they cannot promote their personal views under their real names, perhaps because they are homo or trans sexuals, political dissidents, or belong to an outlawed or oppressed religion.

If you can't see the emergence of populist politics via the internet then it is truly your loss. Get off the porn sites before you go blind.

Comparing the internet to the telephone, leads me to wonder

HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE???

 

[BeerNuts]

Wow you guys got really really off topic.

 

[Enigmabomb]

I saw the Penn and Teller, and I liked it a lot. Thought they made some excellent points.