Chopper Gunner Indiscretion: Innocent People Hammered With 30mm Rounds

[Unarmed Gunman]

That justification is really weak in reality. It's pretty solid in theory, but it's be used and abused with premeditation for a long time.

There are politicians that want to gain more jobs in their districts to get re-elected. Their districts happen to have defense contractors as primary employers.

There are people living in those districts who like receiving paychecks while working for defense contractors.

There are the defense contractors themselves who want more military orders.

There are logistics companies who want defense contractors to have those projects and military to be always actively deployed somewhere.

There are also some members of the military brass who firmly believe that if two generations of soldiers pass without seeing large scale combat, the army's effectiveness drops. So they want wars to happen from time to time simply from purely pragmatic perspective.

I can list a lot more "groups" of Americans that want the war to go on. And I'm sure you can list them as well.

None of them want to deliberately kill people, but they sure as fuck want the bombs to continue exploding and rounds to be fired, and tanks to be used up and torn, and trucks to be blown up and replaced, and fuel to be burned, and missiles to be launched, and ready to eat meals consumed. The faster the DOD's supplies are depleted, the more new orders everyone in the supply chain scores.

(I won't even go into discussing the oil sector. And I won't go into discussing the use geo politics backed by military strength to protect business interests of the US from which US consumers benefit greatly. And I definitely won't go into the whole private contractor sector, which needs the war simply to exist.)

In short, they all want the war machine to go on, yet they don't want to deliberately kill people. Some of them don't even understand how much they benefit from the war.

But in any case, you can't have a war without death.

So saying that US doesn't intentionally kill, is simply not true. There are plenty of parties/people involved that have vested interests in the war: from giant corporation stockholders to janitors mopping floors at the factories.

But they all like to pretend like what they are doing is not connected to the outcome in some way.

That's why the whole argument about deliberately killing vs. intentionally killing is complete bullshit. And the reason it's used so often is specifically because without it, the whole system of beliefs based on "us vs. them" would collapse.

Since some Americans benefit from deaths of Iraqis, shouldn't all Americans be help responsible?

If not, then why is it OK to hold all Muslims responsible for what some of them are doing?

Terrorism is a business. Military is also a business.

So you can't have it both ways.

If you put all Muslims into one monolithic group, then you should also put all Americans into a monolithic group as well.

And if you did that, then Americans would really begin to look like a bunch of bloodthirsty gready bullies who should all be exterminated for the betterment of the world.

Sadly, that's pretty much how the US is seen from the outside.

As I've already said, I've never supported the war in Iraq and always knew it was based on bullshit. I'm well aware of how our military industrial complex operates - but if these stupid motherfuckers would stop trying to attack innocent Americans they would have more support. When they keep acting like bloodthirsty savages, it makes it much easier for the US to justify it's actions and easier to sell it to people as justified.

I guess I would point to Gandhi's approach to dealing with the British - at some point the British realized that no matter what they did - they looked like the aggressors and lost credibility. If Gandhi had lead a terroristic campaign against the British, it would have been easier for them to justify staying in India, the use of force, etc. When you use terrorism against civilians you put yourself in a situation where nobody remembers who struck first and all actions seem justifiable. You also erode support for your actual cause and put it firmly in the hands of the extremists who generally do not have the interests of the civilian population at heart.

 

[bcc423]

but if these stupid motherfuckers would stop trying to attack innocent Americans they would have more support

For one, it's like telling your rape victim: relax and it will be less painful for you.

But again, you are missing the point.

"these stupid motherfuckers" -- can you define the group specifically?

When they keep acting like bloodthirsty savages, it makes it much easier for the US to justify it's actions and easier to sell it to people as justified.

Again, they who? People who profit from it? Yes. They need to make it as graphic as possible. Otherwise, they won't be able to raise much money.

But saying that ordinary Iraqis should somehow stop the terrorists from doing what they are doing or be held responsible along with them is like saying that you must stop the Congress and MIC or be held responsible along with them.

Do you really have a way of forcing Lockheed Martin to step down its lobbying?

No? Sucks to be you then. You are just a guilty as they are.

Doesn't that logic seem weak to you?

Yet, that's the logic you are trying to apply when you somehow make ordinary people responsible for what the ruling class is doing.

 

[Groomez]

For all the critics of this video... Its called 20-20 hindsight. If you haven't been in a combat situation you really shouldn't judge or make assumptions :anon.sml:

^This... I've been saying it all along, but people think their CoD2 experience counts as combat.

 

[popeye]

Seen from outside? OMG! World exists outside of USA. Jeeze, stop saying such blasphemous things. It is beyond the comprehension of the kitchen-tables* of WF.

* Read: Popeye, Hellblazer, LotsOfZeros et. al.

Now, why should I give a fuck about other countries? What has the rest of the world done for the U.S?? We practically (with a little help from Briton's Thatcher) saved the world from the U.S.S.R. We lost millions of American kids in WW2 to keep Europe from Hitler. Without the U.S. South Korea would be the shithole that the north is. Should I go on? I could for hours.

Our government sends hundreds of millions of dollars every year to help Africa and other third world "countries" around the world. We send our soldiers ANYWHERE in the world that needs and wants our help.

What do we get from the rest of the world....NOT A FUCKIN THING. We can't even get the rest of the world to stand with us against a soon to be nuclear Iran. The United Nations fucks us at every turn. Now why should we respect a bunch of ass hurt nations that are only out to weaken our country in hopes of cashing in on our problems.

But...don't worry world! When you are once again invaded or need relief from a natural disater, we will be there to bail you out....no matter how many times you have tried to undermine us.

 

[bcc423]

popeye, are you serious?

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

"these stupid motherfuckers" -- can you define the group specifically?

Muslims that allow the zealots to represent them.

But saying that ordinary Iraqis should somehow stop the terrorists from doing what they are doing or be held responsible along with them is like saying that you must stop the Congress and MIC or be held responsible along with them.

We did - we voted them out and sent the message that the war needs to end. If it wasn't for that, the US would have already attacked Iran too. The American people's refusal to accept another interventionist war is why it hasn't happened already. That's also the only reason the US hasn't allowed Israel to have its way in the region. The American people are the only ones preventing any of that, so common sense dictates that attacking those American people should not be in the interest of Muslims because at some point the American citizens will get tired of the bullshit and demand a parking lot in the Middle East.

 

[Lord B]

Now, why should I give a fuck about other countries? What has the rest of the world done for the U.S?? We practically (with a little help from Briton's Thatcher) saved the world from the U.S.S.R. We lost millions of American kids in WW2 to keep Europe from Hitler. Without the U.S. South Korea would be the shithole that the north is. Should I go on? I could for hours.

Our government sends hundreds of millions of dollars every year to help Africa and other third world "countries" around the world. We send our soldiers ANYWHERE in the world that needs and wants our help.

What do we get from the rest of the world....NOT A FUCKIN THING. We can't even get the rest of the world to stand with us against a soon to be nuclear Iran. The United Nations fucks us at every turn. Now why should we respect a bunch of ass hurt nations that are only out to weaken our country in hopes of cashing in on our problems.

But...don't worry world! When you are once again invaded or need relief from a natural disater, we will be there to bail you out....no matter how many times you have tried to undermine us.

popeye, are you serious?

Nah, he is just proving what I wrote above. Don't worry about him - it is far beyond him to comprehend anything that is not part of Faux News propaganda or what he has been mind-fucked with the whole of his life...

 

[bcc423]

so common sense dictates that attacking those American people should not be in the interest of Muslims

Sure, it's not in the interest of Muslims. It is in the interest of various terrorist organizations, corporations, and/or governments.

And if those involved and/or benefiting from terror don't act in the interest of all Muslims, doesn't it follow that they are not (for the lack of a better word) "true" Muslims?

You are proving my point, don't you see that?

How can you still continue to think that it's the doing (or responsibility) or all Muslims?

And yet, for some reason, you continue to see all Muslims as one homogeneous entity, while I keep telling you that the whole point here is that such view is incorrect. It just doesn't represent the reality.

Can you try to maintain your understanding of what's going on without relying on the "us vs. them" bit that you post in every single one of your responses?

Try it. And you'll see just how quickly your entire worldview collapses.
It simply "won't compute". Your statements and your arguments will stop making sense the minute you stop applying them to the entire group of people indiscriminately.

We did - we voted them out and sent the message that the war needs to end.

You are doing it again. But this time, it's regarding the Americans

We who?

I can find a shitload of people who would say they took no part in making Obama the president.

There is plenty of people in the US who would have loved nothing more than to see Obama get shot the day before the elections. (And even more on the day after the elections.)

You simply can't view it all as "us vs. them". The reality is not like that.

 

[bcc423]

Nah, he is just proving what I wrote above. Don't worry about him - it is far beyond him to comprehend anything that is not part of Faux News propaganda or what he has been mind-fucked with the whole of his life...

I saw your previous post, but I didn't think people like that actually exist

There is bias, there is ignorance, there is arrogance, but all that in the same single post and with such tone of absolute certainty -- now that's fascinating

 

[hellblazer]

Now, why should I give a fuck about other countries? What has the rest of the world done for the U.S?? We practically (with a little help from Briton's Thatcher) saved the world from the U.S.S.R. We lost millions of American kids in WW2 to keep Europe from Hitler. Without the U.S. South Korea would be the shithole that the north is. Should I go on? I could for hours.

Our government sends hundreds of millions of dollars every year to help Africa and other third world "countries" around the world. We send our soldiers ANYWHERE in the world that needs and wants our help.

What do we get from the rest of the world....NOT A FUCKIN THING. We can't even get the rest of the world to stand with us against a soon to be nuclear Iran. The United Nations fucks us at every turn. Now why should we respect a bunch of ass hurt nations that are only out to weaken our country in hopes of cashing in on our problems.

But...don't worry world! When you are once again invaded or need relief from a natural disater, we will be there to bail you out....no matter how many times you have tried to undermine us.

^^^^ THIS. All the other leftwing vermin that crawled out of their holes to dribble out their propaganda need to read this several times until they're cured of their cognitive dissonance. Or they can keep parroting their talking points back and forth to each other, reciprocally stroking each other's egos in a picture-perfect rendition of the ultimate echo chamber. I think we all know which one they'll choose.

 

[iPwnNoobs]

while im sure this thread fully delivers:

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

And if those involved and/or benefiting from terror don't act in the interest of all Muslims, doesn't it follow that they are not (for the lack of a better word) "true" Muslims?

No. The Qu'ran is the final authority on that, and it calls for bloodshed - damn the consequences.

How can you still continue to think that it's the doing (or responsibility) or all Muslims?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

And yet, for some reason, you continue to see all Muslims as one homogeneous entity...

No I'm not. I'm simply saying that it is up to Muslims (in general - not in total) to choose better leaders, be they official or unofficial.

Can you try to maintain your understanding of what's going on without relying on the "us vs. them" bit that you post in every single one of your responses?

I'm doing that for effect. It's to illustrate the fallacy of their approach.

Your statements and your arguments will stop making sense the minute you stop applying them to the entire group of people indiscriminately.

There is nothing indiscriminate about the group of people I'm referring to, you just seem to not understand it. According to your earlier post, you assumed it meant all "brown people who don't believe in Jesus" which is fucking retarded. I'll clarify for you - All Muslims in a position to kill the zealots within, that are placing them in the cross hairs by their terrorstic actions, should do so for their own good. Since they don't believe in elections, and seem to only respond to violence, it would appear that is the only way for them to usurp the power of the terrorists using their religion for their own motives.

I can find a shitload of people who would say they took no part in making Obama the president. There is plenty of people in the US who would have loved nothing more than to see Obama get shot the day before the elections. (And even more on the day after the elections.).

That's what makes our system so functional. Bloodless transition of power regardless of political differences.

 

[flysarescary]

No. The Qu'ran is the final authority on that, and it calls for bloodshed - damn the consequences.



If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.



No I'm not. I'm simply saying that it is up to Muslims (in general - not in total) to choose better leaders, be they official or unofficial.



I'm doing that for effect. It's to illustrate the fallacy of their approach.



There is nothing indiscriminate about the group of people I'm referring to, you just seem to not understand it. According to your earlier post, you assumed it meant all "brown people who don't believe in Jesus" which is fucking retarded. I'll clarify for you - All Muslims in a position to kill the zealots within, that are placing them in the cross hairs by their terrorstic actions, should do so for their own good. Since they don't believe in elections, and seem to only respond to violence, it would appear that is the only way for them to usurp the power of the terrorists using their religion for their own motives.



That's what makes our system so functional. Bloodless transition of power regardless of political differences.

lol choose. but but but choice.... is sooo western!!!!! we just gotta let the dudes who really really really memorized and sing the quran well to decide whats good for us. itll be alright. plus the caliphate is coming soon and then itll be really awesome

also, but but but... how did the pedophile 1600 years ago know that semen in women causes babby to form? it must be the presence of the flying spaghetti monster

 

[bcc423]

No. The Qu'ran is the final authority on that, and it calls for bloodshed - damn the consequences.

Are you telling me that you read it in Arabic and saw that specific "instruction"?
Or do you just base it on a statement made by some extremist who says so?
Or do you base in on a statement made by some right-winger who says that all Muslims are evil and cites Qur'an as proof?

I know plenty of Muslims from different parts of the world, and the only thing they all share in common the following belief: if you turn another person into a Muslim, then you'll go to heaven.

Nothing about killing anyone. Nothing about virgins. Nothing about jihad or any other bullshit.

One thing any Muslim "should" do is talk to you and try to answer all your questions if you show interest in accepting that religion.

That is the only common thing among "them".

Those of Muslims who talk about jihad and virgins are not that different from the Christians that are preparing for the Rapture any day now.

And of those that do talk about that shit, most don't really care enough to actually do anything. Just like only a small percentage of rapture-ready Christians actually build armed compounds and form militias.

Islam is really a religion of peace. But it gets perverted by a similar mindset to "god hates ..." among Christians. People just make shit up to help them achieve something, and project it onto God.

No I'm not. I'm simply saying that it is up to Muslims (in general - not in total) to choose better leaders, be they official or unofficial.

Yep, but the West has been meddling with their "internal" affairs for decades. Installing puppet regimes, supplying weapons, choking off trade, and doing a lot of other shit that prevented people in the region from developing their own will.

I'm doing that for effect. It's to illustrate the fallacy of their approach.

Fallacy of whose approach? If you are doing it on purpose, then I'm missing it. If anything, that illuminates the basis of your bias.

According to your earlier post, you assumed it meant all "brown people who don't believe in Jesus" which is fucking retarded.

You need to say it with a juicy southern accent. Then it won't sound as retarded. Oh yeah, it will. Nevermind

All Muslims in a position to kill the zealots within, that are placing them in the cross hairs by their terrorstic actions, should do so for their own good.

There aren't that many "innocent civilians" that are in a position to kill terrorists or zealots or extremists or anyone else.

What would they kill the terrorists with? If a Muslim picks up an AK-47 to kill some terrorists, he would probably get shot with a 30mm cannon from a chopper that happened to fly nearby.

Do you see the problem?

Instead of talking hypothetically, can you describe a scenario in which some peaceful civilian has a chance of actually winning against local underground militia?

 

[LazyHippy]

Now, why should I give a fuck about other countries? What has the rest of the world done for the U.S??

Er... created it?

Ok, I know that was a bad move and the Americas would have been a hell of a lot better if we'd just left them to the natives but there are a few good things have come from Europe's adventures in the New World.

Next time you want to rant about the US saving Europe, go back a tiny bit further and think of the thousands of peasants Europe offloaded in the Americas and what they created...

 

[PhillipMarlow]

It wasn't until Vietnam that the U.S. really perfected the art of killing. It took TONS of cognitive imprinting/programming to train these guys to get past the idea of killing someone. Prior to what we consider "modern warfare", poor people would just line up and shoot over each others heads for the most part.

If you look at tribal level "warfare" studies, most of the time it was over the most valuable natural resource available...women. It was extremely rare for anyone to be killed. Lots of puncture wounds from long ass spears though.

I was a sophomore in college when 9/11 happened, and had just finished an honors anthropology course titled, "Violence and Terror in the 20th century". I had never heard of Osama bin laden, the PLO or really much about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict before that. It wasn't talked about in my shitty public school education, that's for sure.

An interesting side note: By far and away the most intelligent person I've met on my short time on this rock was a philosophy student I met while training BJJ in college. He lived in a box and picked up trash on campus so he could make enough money to eat. He was also insanely well-versed in military theory and history. After 9/11, he immediately enlisted, was shuttled into the 82nd airborne, later made green beret and then I didn't hear from him for several years.

I asked him early on how he could go into the military surrounded by people less intelligent than himself and take orders from idiots and fight in somebody else's war. His answer?

He was doing what he was born to do. Kill bad guys.

 

[flysarescary]

Islam is really a religion of peace.

here u go brah

ur hopeless

 

[LazyHippy]

What concerns me more about this shit is not the fact that they gunned down innocent civilians, but their trigger-happy attitude towards it.

They seem so desensitised to killing. I know the whole military machine brainwashes kids into not viewing the "enemy" as human for reasons of combat effectiveness (and most likely to reduce ptsd and save money) but it's still saddening to see that so little humanity remains.

 

[bcc423]

here u go brah

I take it you studied Islam and know a lot about that religion. Great. Can you enlighten me with some specifics?

 

[flysarescary]

I take it you studied Islam and know a lot about that religion. Great. Can you enlighten me with some specifics?

yah. egotistical dude sits in a cave playing with his wiener. writes a book. seeing as how books are new and 99% of the planet is illiterate, shit is more viral then youtube. then 9/11 happens and the united states military kills a lot of muslims. the end

amiright?