Bitcoins at $75

Hey Joe. Just reading this thread and decided to pick this part of your argument out. If the "tax" (forced purchase) is so obviously beneficial to everyone than why isn't it voluntary? If it serves everyone so well, why not let people make the choice?

Remember this was a hypothetical tax i gave to show that even if it was proven to definitely be 'good' for all AnCapers would be against it. Here are a few reasons volunteerism might not work here.

1) Many taxes are for the benefits of kids that don't join in paying the tax until they are older and join the work force. It's impossible to separate kids from their parents if they chose not to pay the tax.

2) The tax could be beneficial to all but many people might not know it. It's wrong to force them into something but at the same time it could be beneficial to them in some way.

If it's forced it's theft.

I agree - it is theft. It's morally wrong to most including me. But can some theft be beneficial to society regardless?

Let me put it like this... Have you played the game Civilization? In that game you can choose a form of government for your civ. In the game each government has its advantages and disadvantages.. just like in real life.

What I'm trying to say is that I have never heard any AnCaper acknowledge that Anarchy could have disadvantages.. this is why I am sure it's a fantasy for them. Supposedly, according to them, Anarchy will be better at everything.. including morality, progress, innovation, and probably scientific research.

What if in reality an AnCap world provided less innovation in a given amount of time than our current system (taxes/theft). Scientific gains stay with us even when an economy crashes and burns. That's progress that never goes away. And if you're into transhumanism it might be a good way to go.

What Moore's Law would stop being true if we adopted Anarchy? Is it worth it for the moral justification? To some it would be to others it would not be.

I don't know if AnCap would provide more/less scientific progress and innovation than our current system. But at least I'm not locked into an ideology that makes me refuse to acknowledge that each system could have its advantages and disadvantages.
 


Economic transaction costs.
The Economic transaction cost from owning multiple, free, disposable wallets?

Maybe I'm a bit slow today, but I don't see it. Could you clarify please?

They won't be doing that once the government requires them to report all BTC related transactions.
I'm referring to totally 3rd-party, off-the-record services. I guess they can go after the domain of these places but that's about it.

Since you seem to have no faith in the P2P advantage we have over the govs, I guess only time will show you what you need to see... It just makes me sad that you won't own any bitcoin before that day comes; Because they'll likely be $100's or even over $1000 USD by the time you and team Rothbard come around to supporting them. :(


BTC: As a last resort, can be used to buy illegal narcotics anonymously, or sell them to junkies...(and round and round) as tangible value.
The bitcoin economy is already far larger than junkies, and frankly they don't even measure as a blip on the radar anymore.

The problem I see is that in a doomsday scenario, one gets wiped out along with the internet. while the other doesn't.
The kind of doomsday scenario that it would take to wipe out the internet these days would make even silver useless. We'd all be living like cavemen, if we live at all.



If the majority of sales (not transactions) aren't black market based, what are they based on?
There are tons of directories full of vendors that take bitcoin now.

Surely you've heard the big names like Wordpress, Namecheap, Mega, and a few others, but just like with a profitable keyword campaign, the real money is in the long tail merchants... Here is my favorite directory:

Bitcoiney (Nice but small)

The Official Bitcoin Wiki Merchant list (Big but old)

Even then, discounting all of the vendors who have "come out," you gays are still missing the bigger picture. System D is the #2 economy on the earth, just behind the USD economy.

I have yet to hear a good argument on how Bitcoin would fail to become that economy's favored currency... It clearly has already begun.


What other transactions would it be? Surely not public, legal transactions...
because then the obvious thing in that case is to go with the flow and do it like it be.
So there's now $800 Million USD in bitcoins just sitting there in people's hands, and you don't think companies that sell non-legal products would like any of it?

In the free market, there is this thing called a competitive advantage. I know it's a strange concept to grasp in our modern world, but the Bitcoin creates an envelope of actual Free Market around it by being anonymous and untraceable.

Therefore, competitive advantages exist with the bitcoin economy. To a company like Namecheap, that means if they sell their product for bitcoin, then they'll have a competitive advantage over GoDaddy.

So they do.




The 60% foot the bill, while the 40% get to reap the benefits for free?

Or do you just foot the full bill for the testing, while I reap the rewards of drinking tested water?

Why do I get to live with the benefits of having water bombers in town, and my house saved because of them?
Are these examples of "unfairness" really worth the trade-offs for having a government?

Statists and obviously socialists see these examples of 'the few having to pay for some others' as the greater evil.

It is not. If you think so, then you are immoral. This unfairness doesn't result in huge, involuntary taxes or millions of lives taken. It doesn't result in a thousand things we all hate about the world today, that wouldn't be there if governments weren't doing them.

Just the Democide consequence alone should be unacceptable to any civilization, yet you statists seem to be able to constantly believe that democide won't ever happen again so it's worth the costs of having a state in order to not have to pay for others unfairly.

But democide will happen again. Possibly to you.

Then there's taxes for things you'd never approve of, which makes up a large amount of what you get taxed. Like bombing brown people on the far side of the planet. That's a real double-dose of immorality there, yet it's so commonplace today that statists defend it as necessity.

Then there's paying for HORRIBLE schooling and public services that you wouldn't use yourself but are sometimes forced to because the government doesn't like competition.

Do I need to go on? How can you defend all of this evil just so you won't be paying a bit more for some slacker someday?
 
So there's now $800 Million USD in bitcoins just sitting there in people's hands,

lukep: I am not sure what you are trying to illustrate by referring to the market capitalization of BTC. If all BTC were to be put on the market in the next 5 minutes, the price will plummet drastically. Furthermore, the market capitalization of BTC is based on a very small percent of actual coins trading hands, in the big picture, it means nothing.

and you don't think companies that sell non-legal products would like any of it?

lukep: wut? If you read my post clearly you would understand that I AM saying that most of the BTC transactions are for non-legal products.

But seriously, companies don't sell "non-legal products", criminals do.

In the free market, there is this thing called a competitive advantage. I know it's a strange concept to grasp in our modern world, but the Bitcoin creates an envelope of actual Free Market around it by being anonymous and untraceable.

You are basically saying BTC is cool because it will let you transact without worrying about if laws are being broken in regards to the transaction taking place? This is a net loss for society because this is promoting criminal behavior.

And please, why would you need to have a transactions be anonymous and untraceable if it were not illegal in the first place?


Therefore, competitive advantages exist with the bitcoin economy. To a company like Namecheap, that means if they sell their product for bitcoin, then they'll have a competitive advantage over GoDaddy.

So they do

Come on bro.. the only advantage Namecheap is getting with taking BTC is:

1. Feel good & progressive marketing press
2. A little, small bump in sales (that will never be enough for them to overtake Godaddy) from those who want to change their BTC into domains... and I would bet on the odds that MOST OF THEIR BTC VOLUME will be from criminals who will target Namecheap as to hide their tracks...
 
lukep: I am not sure what you are trying to illustrate by referring to the market capitalization of BTC. If all BTC were to be put on the market in the next 5 minutes, the price will plummet drastically. Furthermore, the market capitalization of BTC is based on a very small percent of actual coins trading hands, in the big picture, it means nothing.
Bitcoins are both highly liquid and well-used.
The velocity and dormancy of bitcoin | cryptonomics


lukep: wut? If you read my post clearly you would understand that I AM saying that most of the BTC transactions are for non-legal products.

But seriously, companies don't sell "non-legal products", criminals do.
I would be willing to bet that a large majority of cash transactions are for illegal purchases.

It's an irrelevant argument to have, however. The truth is that what you're proposing is that you believe the government ought to know how you spend your money, where you spend your money, and why you spent your money. I bet if I told you that you had to tell the government about when where and why you spent your money eery time you did, you'd be highly offended. Yet, you seem to think that anonymous transactions are a negative thing. Everyone wants privacy.

You are basically saying BTC is cool because it will let you transact without worrying about if laws are being broken in regards to the transaction taking place? This is a net loss for society because this is promoting criminal behavior.

And please, why would you need to have a transactions be anonymous and untraceable if it were not illegal in the first place?
Because privacy is something we all think is important. Really? Just because somethign is done in private doesn't mean its untoward. I would prefer to buy condoms in private. I would prefer to buy security systems privately, guns, ammunition, gifts, etc. There is no way you believe what you're saying.

Come on bro.. the only advantage Namecheap is getting with taking BTC is:
1. Feel good & progressive marketing press
2. A little, small bump in sales (that will never be enough for them to overtake Godaddy) from those who want to change their BTC into domains... and I would bet on the odds that MOST OF THEIR BTC VOLUME will be from criminals who will target Namecheap as to hide their tracks...
You know this? Seems like a pretty bold claim.

From the previous quote it seems like you're saying the following: that a person who does crime is a criminal, and bitcoins are bad because people who do crime use bitcoins. Therefore, bitcoins encourage criminal behavior. There are a lot of problems with the syllogism. First, you have to define crime. While all crime is criminal, not all criminal behavior is justifiably criminal - prohibition comes to mind. You are presuming that the entity which sets the rules for what is and what isn't criminal possesses omniscience such that all things that are considered crime are correctly classified as crime. I bet if you searched yourself, you'd be pretty offended by most of what we consider to be crime.

If I accept the premise that Bitcoins do encourage crime, then I find the rest of the implication to be a bit precarious. BitCoins don't encourage the kind of crime that hurts you directly. It doesn't encourage 16 year olds to kick you in the nuts, it doesn't encourage theft, it doesn't encourage people to do meth. It encourages people who are conscientious objectors of laws that are affecting them individually to engage in transactions in a way that won't hurt them. Even if big drug Lords are using BitCoin to launder money, most drug prices are a result of scarce resources. The scarcity is caused by laws that criminalize the drugs. As a result of these laws, people who use the drugs are not only paying an exorbitant amount and taking a huge amount of risk when purchasing goods, they are also now, in your paradigm, considered criminals. And criminals are bad... right? BitCoins didn't encourage their behavior, it facilitated it and removed some of the possibility of eggregious negative consequences.

I think that's a good thing. Free people being free.
 
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Bitcoins are both highly liquid and well-used.
The velocity and dormancy of bitcoin | cryptonomics



I would be willing to bet that a large majority of cash transactions are for illegal purchases.

It's an irrelevant argument to have, however. The truth is that what you're proposing is that you believe the government ought to know how you spend your money, where you spend your money, and why you spent your money. I bet if I told you that you had to tell the government about when where and why you spent your money eery time you did, you'd be highly offended. Yet, you seem to think that anonymous transactions are a negative thing. Everyone wants privacy.


Because privacy is something we all think is important. Really? Just because somethign is done in private doesn't mean its untoward. I would prefer to buy condoms in private. I would prefer to buy security systems privately, guns, ammunition, gifts, etc. There is no way you believe what you're saying.


You know this? Seems like a pretty bold claim.

You're saying that a person who does crime is a criminal, and bitcoins are bad because people who do crime use bitcoins. Therefore, bitcoins encourage criminal behavior. There are a lot of problems with the syllogism. First, you have to define crime. While all crime is criminal, not all criminal behavior is justifiably criminal - prohibition comes to mind. You are presuming that the entity which sets the rules for what is and what isn't criminal possesses omniscience such that all things that are considered crime are correctly classified as crime. I bet if you searched yourself, you'd be pretty offended by most of what we consider to be crime.

If I accept the premise that Bitcoins do encourage crime, then I find the rest of the implication to be a bit precarious. BitCoins don't encourage the kind of crime that hurts you directly. It doesn't encourage 16 year olds to kick you in the nuts, it doesn't encourage theft, it doesn't encourage people to do meth. It encourages people who are conscientious objectors of laws that are affecting them individually to engage in transactions in a way that won't hurt them. Even if big drug Lords are using BitCoin to launder money, most drug prices are a result of scarce resources. The scarcity is caused by laws that criminalize the drugs. As a result of these laws, people who use the drugs are not only paying an exorbitant amount and taking a huge amount of risk when purchasing goods, they are also now, in your paradigm, considered criminals. And criminals are bad. BitCoins didn't encourage their behavior, it facilitated it and removed some of the possibility of eggregious negative consequences.

applause-gif-3.gif
 
lukep: I am not sure what you are trying to illustrate by referring to the market capitalization of BTC. If all BTC were to be put on the market in the next 5 minutes, the price will plummet drastically. Furthermore, the market capitalization of BTC is based on a very small percent of actual coins trading hands, in the big picture, it means nothing.
I referred to it because these saved coins are a big, $800 Million target for merchants to want some of.

LEGIT merchants. Like those listed above, and more to come.



lukep: wut? If you read my post clearly you would understand that I AM saying that most of the BTC transactions are for non-legal products.
D'oh! I mean to type "non-Illegal" obviously.

Criminals aren't buying to save, and wordpress and hundreds of merchants on that list can't be used illegally.

You are basically saying BTC is cool because it will let you transact without worrying about if laws are being broken in regards to the transaction taking place? This is a net loss for society because this is promoting criminal behavior.
Oh fuck, here we go again... Another typical bleeding-heart liberal "I hate humanity because 99% of it eats babies" bullshit.

We aren't the race portrayed in Avatar. Humans have good people among us and do good things.

Governments, however, generally don't.

Humans desperately need protection from governments... Bitcoin offers us that.


Come on bro.. the only advantage Namecheap is getting with taking BTC is:
It's still an advantage, so my point stands. Any company looking for an advantage against their competition now has one waiting for them.


samgeneric said:
Good link, thanks for posting that.

The fact that 60% of bitcoins are still sitting untouched fully supports my estimation. Groups #1 and #2 are sitting on them and just hoarding in a way. But 40% of the market is clearly moving them, and so therefore merchants are exchanging them.

The bitcoin economy exists... And is growing fast.
 
Good link, thanks for posting that.
Just like internet changed the way advertisers could measure their marketing, bitcoins and the blockchain revolutionize our access to data about transactions. I would think econ types like guerilla would be drooling over the data rather than ignoring it.
 
The merchants who matter (for example, Amazon) will not take BTC because it won't look good to regulators, and why should they? They're having people them pay anyway.
 
The merchants who matter (for example, Amazon) will not take BTC because it won't look good to regulators, and why should they? They're having people them pay anyway.
Funny you should mention Amazon... Jeff Bezos is a well-known libertarian, and he's well aware of bitcoins so one can only assume he'd like to put them on amazon.com.

However, he isn't doing it and I'm pretty sure it's because he knows that would draw too much spotlight on Bitcoin too fast; He's already got mainstreet USA and WalMart looking for anything they can do to take away Amazon's lead, so he's quite likely doing us all a favor keeping BTC off his site as they and their lobbyists would surely target Bitcoin directly.

Meanwhile, you can Already buy anything off of amazon.com right now in bitcoin. Surely Bezos could have blocked this if he had wanted to.

Go team.


Anyone know the daily turnover of bitcoin transactions? I can't find anything.

Nothing? You couldn't find:

Bitcoin Block Explorer - Blockchain.info

or even:

http://www.bitcoinmonitor.com



Edit: Holy FUCK look at all that traffic from SatoshiDice!
 
Well I've not heard too many people besides you say that deflation can be good thing to economic progress and innovation.
It's been a long day, and to be honest, after coming back and posting for 2 days, I am not sure I have the stamina to lay out free market economics from A to Z in a public forum thread.

I'd love to discuss this with you, because I think there are some things which I feel I could explain better, and I think there are some concepts that you may have misinterpreted.

If you'd be up to chatting on skype, call or text, drop me a PM. I will happily make the time to get together to discuss this with you.

That said, the basic issue here is one of how we determine what value is.

How do we know something is "good" objectively, if we don't weigh the costs and the benefits?

Almost everything benefits someone. What's the cost? That's the question no one asks. At what cost? Whose savings are being inflated away? Who is losing purchasing power? Who is gaining it? Who decides that?

It's generally accepted in economics that markets determine values, not fiat decisions by government, or council etc. If I force you to buy something for $X, can we really say the price of that good is $X? What if it's a $3 cheeseburger and I force you with threat of imprisonment to buy it for $100. Is it now actually a $100 cheeseburger?

In market economics, prices are set when two parties freely decide to exchange. When you inflate away value, that is when you destroy property rights, you're bypassing this process. Someone, whoever is making the decision to create inflation, marginal or not, has decided for everyone with money, what their values should be, or should be aligned to.

I haven't met a human that smart, or that perfect in their understanding. In fact, I am fairly certain that if you give any man, woman, council or bureaucracy that power, they are apt to completely get it wrong.

Note, I haven't said a thing about ancap or ethics. I am talking about the impracticality and irrationality of central planning strictly from an economic point of view.

Let me know if you'd like to chat.
 
If my question wasn't clear before, I'm curious how many bitcoins are used daily to conduct commercial transactions. Not how many are mined or transferred from one place to another but how many are used to purchase goods and services.
No one can know that; we can only know the exchange's traffic amounts and the transfer traffic amounts.

However, as you can see there many addresses are labeled (like satoshidice) and they can look at transfer traffic both with and without the top 100 (non exchange) addresses.

So that's a third segmentation: the exchanges, everyone else, and just the top 100 merchants.

By subtraction you get the 4th segment too; all merchants+wallet owners that are neither an exchange nor a top 100 merchant.

The system is designed for extreme anonymity. Be very happy you're getting this much info.