Bitcoins at $75
- Thread starter schockergd
- Start date
Agreed. It's not really the USD:BTC that I'm talking about though; it's the Market Cap.
Tl;dc: It didn't go down after silk road as much as the price did. Also, we're almost at $800 Million now.
So um, you never heard of the blockchain?
We might not know how much is specifically from that marketplace, but we know the exact amounts of every transaction that has ever happened in bitcoin, and exactly when.
It's the one we're talking about, and very likely the only popular BTC-centered one at the time we're talking about.
As an anarchist, money laundering is not exactly something that I'm unhappy about... And my point was that there are far larger markets in the libertarian & anarchist crowds than on the "black market." (Which I don't consider money laundering to be a part of anyway.)
Have you seen the volume lately? You sound a tad bit insane.
But they aren't spikes... They're sustained. Look at the charts man!
You'd simply need to join two exchanges (like MtGox and BTC-E) and sell them off when it comes. Good luck to you sir.
I never hyped up either. I just said I do invest, and never mentioned the amounts, prices, or even times I did so.
It shouldn't be suprising though; bitcoin is to libertarians now as Gold was 5 years ago.
About the WSJ news: No news here. We'll still all be able to get our bitcoins anonymously... People who use the monitored exchanges will simply sell btc to the rest of us in places like localbitcoins.com, or use the laundering site I talked about earlier and sell those btc to anyone they want.
Frankly I view this as good news. Some politicians have taken (past tense) some action and won't need to look at bitcoins again for a while.
Guerilla, you're the stupidest anarchist in the world. And your economic penis is very very small, like the Japanese. Stop explaining shit you know very little about.
"People will realize this when the value hits zero, as it inevitably must."
"I am sitting here thinking, and I definitely wouldn't use Bitcoin to hold a cash balance. I wouldn't use it as an investment.... If you've got money, the highest return you can get is re-investing in yourself.I am always puzzled by successful entrepreneurs who sit on cash balances. If I did need to sit on a cash balance, it wouldn't be with something like Bitcoin which has maybe, 50,000 (?) trading partners worldwide." It's because successful entrepreneurs are smarter than you. Good luck getting a 400% return over the next 6 months on investing in yourself. Idiot.
"I don't care if I haven't convinced anyone. I really, really don't. I'd like to think I am not a petty man, but there is a certain pleasure associated with being correct. Go buy some BTC then get back to me in 5 years with a report on how it turned out." How I get back to you 3 months later and tell you how stupid you are and I'm glad I bought a lot of btc and have made thousands in the last few days because I actually believe the shit that I spew. Oh, you're an idiot.
"And what is your property right to in the end? A hash? You can't copyright it, so there is no intellectual property right protection. You can't prove you own a hash and I don't own the hash. There is no audit trail for that hash without surrendering anonymity." You're an idiot and no one should ever listen to you. Tell the cash money in my bank account right now that there is no evidence that I owned my bitcoins.
"I've argued with Bitcoin fanatics for years. You've already reached a conclusion about Bitcoin, and nothing I tell you will lead you to believe differently. That's why you attack me personally. Because you feel so strongly about BTC, that it's part of your identity, and anyone questioning BTC, is questioning your values and ideas directly." Did I mention that you're an idiot and that you probably disuaded a lot of people from getting in before this rise in price. Chances are it does go down a little or even a lot. But Bitcoins work, and they're here to stay, despite the fact that you're an idiot who refuses to actually make points or have arguments and all you ever do is just say your position over and over again and even in the face of evidence that you're an idiot, you just keep sticking to the same, uneducated, incoherent, orthodox opinion claiming that somehow you have special knowledge of economics because you read a book once.
"I don't expect to be able to reason with you." Probably not, because you're an idiot.
"Bitcoin has a bunch of flaws, not least of which is the fact that by design, it can never be ubiquitous the way gold was 300 years ago, or US dollars are today.
Bitcoin also has no secondary purpose. When Federal reserve notes were introduced as currency, they were debt instruments redeemable in gold.
Bitcoin is only redeemable in whatever someone will give you for one. If it is nothing, then your Bitcoin is worthless. There is no liability attached to a Bitcoin because there is nothing on the other side of a Bitcoin." idiot.
"I really do get tired of talking to people who don't understand economics. It's really frustrating." Yup, me too. Idiot.
All these quotes are from a December thread where Guerilla was waving his economic dick in the air having a blast pretending like an expert. http://www.wickedfire.com/shooting-shit/168290-bitcoin-central-now-licensed-operate-bank-2.html By the way Guerilla, I like your graph, makes you seem like you're educated or something. Really like how it shows waves, and you're juxtaposing that with price fluctuations in an unhindered market. Brilliant. Really like that. Now can you explain why you keep talking about bitcoins? Are you going to say I told you so when the price goes from $75 to $30? Because in December, it was at like $15, and you told me that I was an idiot for supporting the project then. So, if it drops to roughly double what it was then, I'm an idiot right? Because I happen to be in something that crashed? You're an idiot. And you have no credibility because your opinions aren't based in anything, they are your own weird economic thread. I know quite a bit of Austrian economic theory. I've worked my way through Mises' Human Action. You can shut your yapper about knowing shit, because you ain't the only one in the room.
"People will realize this when the value hits zero, as it inevitably must."
"I am sitting here thinking, and I definitely wouldn't use Bitcoin to hold a cash balance. I wouldn't use it as an investment.... If you've got money, the highest return you can get is re-investing in yourself.I am always puzzled by successful entrepreneurs who sit on cash balances. If I did need to sit on a cash balance, it wouldn't be with something like Bitcoin which has maybe, 50,000 (?) trading partners worldwide." It's because successful entrepreneurs are smarter than you. Good luck getting a 400% return over the next 6 months on investing in yourself. Idiot.
"I don't care if I haven't convinced anyone. I really, really don't. I'd like to think I am not a petty man, but there is a certain pleasure associated with being correct. Go buy some BTC then get back to me in 5 years with a report on how it turned out." How I get back to you 3 months later and tell you how stupid you are and I'm glad I bought a lot of btc and have made thousands in the last few days because I actually believe the shit that I spew. Oh, you're an idiot.
"And what is your property right to in the end? A hash? You can't copyright it, so there is no intellectual property right protection. You can't prove you own a hash and I don't own the hash. There is no audit trail for that hash without surrendering anonymity." You're an idiot and no one should ever listen to you. Tell the cash money in my bank account right now that there is no evidence that I owned my bitcoins.
"I've argued with Bitcoin fanatics for years. You've already reached a conclusion about Bitcoin, and nothing I tell you will lead you to believe differently. That's why you attack me personally. Because you feel so strongly about BTC, that it's part of your identity, and anyone questioning BTC, is questioning your values and ideas directly." Did I mention that you're an idiot and that you probably disuaded a lot of people from getting in before this rise in price. Chances are it does go down a little or even a lot. But Bitcoins work, and they're here to stay, despite the fact that you're an idiot who refuses to actually make points or have arguments and all you ever do is just say your position over and over again and even in the face of evidence that you're an idiot, you just keep sticking to the same, uneducated, incoherent, orthodox opinion claiming that somehow you have special knowledge of economics because you read a book once.
"I don't expect to be able to reason with you." Probably not, because you're an idiot.
"Bitcoin has a bunch of flaws, not least of which is the fact that by design, it can never be ubiquitous the way gold was 300 years ago, or US dollars are today.
Bitcoin also has no secondary purpose. When Federal reserve notes were introduced as currency, they were debt instruments redeemable in gold.
Bitcoin is only redeemable in whatever someone will give you for one. If it is nothing, then your Bitcoin is worthless. There is no liability attached to a Bitcoin because there is nothing on the other side of a Bitcoin." idiot.
"I really do get tired of talking to people who don't understand economics. It's really frustrating." Yup, me too. Idiot.
All these quotes are from a December thread where Guerilla was waving his economic dick in the air having a blast pretending like an expert. http://www.wickedfire.com/shooting-shit/168290-bitcoin-central-now-licensed-operate-bank-2.html By the way Guerilla, I like your graph, makes you seem like you're educated or something. Really like how it shows waves, and you're juxtaposing that with price fluctuations in an unhindered market. Brilliant. Really like that. Now can you explain why you keep talking about bitcoins? Are you going to say I told you so when the price goes from $75 to $30? Because in December, it was at like $15, and you told me that I was an idiot for supporting the project then. So, if it drops to roughly double what it was then, I'm an idiot right? Because I happen to be in something that crashed? You're an idiot. And you have no credibility because your opinions aren't based in anything, they are your own weird economic thread. I know quite a bit of Austrian economic theory. I've worked my way through Mises' Human Action. You can shut your yapper about knowing shit, because you ain't the only one in the room.
Damn. So as more people dump their country's currencies for bitcoins, it will become more valuable. I think that a shitload of people are going to adopt bitcoin and it's going to get insanely valuable before something major happens... Even if something major happened I'm not convinced that the bitcoin would disappear or crash.
If you're making money, good for you. You still haven't refuted anything I have posted. I mean, unless you think calling me an idiot is a refutation.
I don't understand why Bitcoin fanboys get so personally and emotionally invested in it. I don't understand why you feel compelled to repost stuff and then call me names. Maybe you're insecure. Maybe you're just having a bad day.
Go back and read your response to me. Ask yourself, is that an intelligent, mature and useful post to make? Is that one you're going to feel proud of 2 years from now?
Making money speculating on BTC doesn't validate BTC anymore than speculating on corn validates corn as a currency.
People made money on tulips once as well.
PS, if you've really read Human Action, I don't think you understood any of it.
As fast as the USG makes Bitcoin illegal, or forces reporting rules on vendors who pay taxes or are registered businesses, you will see Namecheap, WP et al have to drop BTC as a payment method.
The crypto-feature of BTC is only useful in a black market context, and that is why it cannot become money qua money. All it takes is the US Congress to regulate it, and it's over. Just like E-Gold.
Guerilla, you don't take refutation well. When someone refutes you, you just say they didn't refute you correctly. So, the more simple thing to do is just to call it like it is. You are incapable of seeing what's in front of you. Saying Bitcoins isn't working is like saying that the Dollar didn't work. And then you can give some nebulous timeline to say, "see, I told you so." What? So if the dollar and every other fiat currency fails, you're just going to say, well, yeah, I knew that wouldn't work. I predicted it back in 1776. No, you're going to acknowledge that it worked when it worked. Bitcoin works, it is currently working. You're too stupid to see that it is working. People are exchanging it for real goods. It is a currency, and it is working. Get it through your head. Pull out a chart and refute the fact that it is currently working. You can't because that's an objective reality.
What's your point about tulips? Your fucking up your argument. Your arguing that because the price of tulips crashed, no one can ever make money on tulips again, therefore tulips don't work. That's your argument about bitcoins applied to tulips. Even if the price of BitCoins crash, they still are as valuable as the market decides, which means they will still continue to have value. Tulips are still bought and sold everyday. BitCoins are exactly the same. So how is it working out? That's what you want to know? Sure tulip speculation didn't work out for those who bought them at $500 a bulb, but it sure works out today when Home Depot sells you tulips for $5 a pop. The tulip market is alive and healthy, despite the fact that it crashed.
You're right, speculating on bitcoin doesn't validate it as a currency. I'll give you that. You know what does? The fact that people buy things with it and the transact in it, and you can measure the velocity very easily because of the blockchain. There has never been a currency more whose numbers are more easily measured than bitcoin. It is more a currency than any currency that has ever existed. If you can't acknowledge that which IS, then yes, you're an idiot, and I'm proud to call you one. You're like one of those people who will argue whether the sky is actually blue.
BITCOINS ARE A CURRENCY. THEY REPRESENT A STORED VALUE AND HAVE AN EQUIVALENCY. BITCOINS ARE USED TO PURCHASE GOODS IN THE SAME WAY CASH IS. What is hard to get about this? How is this not a currency? It's like watching a person deny that the earth is round.
What's your point about tulips? Your fucking up your argument. Your arguing that because the price of tulips crashed, no one can ever make money on tulips again, therefore tulips don't work. That's your argument about bitcoins applied to tulips. Even if the price of BitCoins crash, they still are as valuable as the market decides, which means they will still continue to have value. Tulips are still bought and sold everyday. BitCoins are exactly the same. So how is it working out? That's what you want to know? Sure tulip speculation didn't work out for those who bought them at $500 a bulb, but it sure works out today when Home Depot sells you tulips for $5 a pop. The tulip market is alive and healthy, despite the fact that it crashed.
You're right, speculating on bitcoin doesn't validate it as a currency. I'll give you that. You know what does? The fact that people buy things with it and the transact in it, and you can measure the velocity very easily because of the blockchain. There has never been a currency more whose numbers are more easily measured than bitcoin. It is more a currency than any currency that has ever existed. If you can't acknowledge that which IS, then yes, you're an idiot, and I'm proud to call you one. You're like one of those people who will argue whether the sky is actually blue.
BITCOINS ARE A CURRENCY. THEY REPRESENT A STORED VALUE AND HAVE AN EQUIVALENCY. BITCOINS ARE USED TO PURCHASE GOODS IN THE SAME WAY CASH IS. What is hard to get about this? How is this not a currency? It's like watching a person deny that the earth is round.
False. Just like I apparently don't understand Mises, you apparently don't understand 256 bit encrypted anonymity or know about TOR browsing.
Reporting? Namecheap and WP have no problem reporting their BTC sales and have said so. But as for the (distant) day when uncle same tries to make BTC Illegal? I say BRING IT ON.
In the completely Free market that bitcoin created, you will then see competing services pop up accepting bitcoin that those now-bitcoin-spoiled customers will migrate to.
The free market will win. P2P will protect all from tyranny.
So no one else likes their privacy?
No libertarians on this planet anymore? No monetary refugees? No husbands that don't want their wives to see them buying porn? No customers of websites that only accept bitcoins? No System D at all???
Please tell me you aren't serious.
Bro, do you even P2P??
E-Gold had a central figure to go after, and they did.
No government on earth could ever fight a popular P2P software like Bittorrent. Not without completely unplugging everyone. I'm sure you already know this. How can you feel regulation would do anything more than polarize us?
I am fairly certain you are trolling or you can't understand what I am saying, which means all of your insults and name calling make you look pretty silly.
If a business doesn't report revenue, they are committing tax fraud. They have to report revenue to government standards, and that includes keeping receipts and sales data.
That means, they can't do anonymous transactions if the USG wants proof of sale. All it takes is a change in IRS reporting requirements, which doesn't have to be passed through Congress as a law, since it is policy.
I don't think you understand how money laundering works. Or the history behind E-Gold. Or how I probably have thousands of hours of TOR network usage on just about everyone on this forum.
I realize you're very emotionally invested in this topic, but I can't suggest strongly enough that you stop posting because you're not impressing me, and I don't think you're winning any one over with the clarity of your argumentation.
My theory is that Guerilla is like 58 years old, and just started reading some econ books, but missed the whole Napster generation thing, because he's really completely perplexed by the idea that BitCoin actually is the things people say BitCoin is. As if we don't have the tech or something.
Really? So if the US government makes a change to law. Then anonymity just disappears? Really? That's how it works?
Not sure how this is relevant. But I'm sure you won't clarify. I'm sure you think you've made your point. But I doubt very much you have thousands of hours of TOR on just about everyone in this forum. But again, I like your nebulous claim. You don't seem to understand anonymity, so I have serious doubts about your claim. But nice try.
Nope, but I'm astonished by your stupidity. I also like that you regularly try to discredit people without making actual arguments but by telling them that they are too worked up. Very persuasive.
Not here to impress you. I think you've thoroughly discredited yourself to anyone who actually reads all the shit you write. You're like the Nostradamus of Wickedfire economics. You make so many claims that I bet like 4% of them are true. But since you're not like a dog, and you don't return to your shit, you just march on pretending like you know anything at all.
You give real anarchists and libertarians a bad name. You're such an arrogant dick, and you don't know anything about the religion you pretend you follow.
Ok, Guerilla, since you pretend that you know what you're talking about, why don't you educate us not on the economics of BitCoin but in how BitCoin actually works. Give us your rundown. Because I bet your understanding of BitCoin's protocol is as stupid as your thread of an understanding of economics.
Can you do that?
Or is that unreasonable and emotional of me to ask? Is actually understanding this thing that apparently isn't a currency beneath you?
I am going to finish taking out the trash tonight.
Other than that, we're mostly on the same page.
Exactly.
No, I am not.
For a small man, that's very big of you.
*sigh*
I AM SUPERMAN. I HAVE X-RAY VISION.
They are not a store of value. They aren't an asset BY DESIGN because an asset can be confiscated.
I think our real problem is, we have different definitions of money and currency, and one of us understands economics and history and the other does not, and one of us is a zealot and the other is not.
Other than that, we're mostly on the same page.
God you're such a fucking moron. You really just can't answer questions. It's like speaking to a kindergartner. And yes, that is in fact what you argued with your tulip inference. Either that's what you're arguing or you're not saying anything relevant. Because that's the actual line of argument you've taken with regard to bitcoin. So if the great Tulip crash is relevant in any way, it's in the way that it relates to your argument. But nice, I like that you can't even get a grasp on what you are actually saying.
You assume the technical details are the issue. Based on your posts, I am not even sure you understand the technical details of BTC.
That said, I could care less about the technical details. They are irrelevant.
If BTC is ever a threat to the system, it will be made illegal. People will stop using it because it is illegal and people are risk averse to legal trouble. Particularly businesses, which require licenses to operate.
Gold was money for thousands of years, and it is now illegal to transact in Gold, and globally, there is infinitely more money in gold than there is in BTC.
That's all that matters. Sovereign risk. I could care less if the blockchain resolves in 24 hours or not. Or if everyone is running the right version of the clearing mechanism. Or if wallets are lost when hard drives crash.
BTC is in a bubble. It might go on for 10 years, although I think BTC will probably lose steam once other people create similar software because it's pretty easy to create a clone of BTC and call it ZipCoins or FartCoins or SamCoins. And with all of the speculative pressure building, I have no doubt that people are thinking about it. It's the new penny stocks.
We don't have the same definition. Your definition is that Bitcoin is the greatest currency ever. I try to define things in a standard economic context.
You're welcome to think whatever you want. As I have said many times, you simply cannot reason with fanatics and while I have many times posted for the audience, I'm tired of talking to people like you. It's why I took a break from forum posting and may be due for another soon.
Successful speculators will get out before the crash, and the unsuccessful ones will get burned. I suspect the fanatics will hold onto their BTC until the bitter end.
Not necessarily. But I have a hard time parsing the bad ideas you're discussing from your own ideas. I can't tell if you're trying to sum up what mainstream charlatans think, or your own perspective.
Any manipulated currency cannot be a "good" in any sense. That's because the only way to derive a "good" level of inflation, is through the market. It can't be centrally imposed.
The first 100 odd years of the US had relatively stable, to deflationary money excepting the civil war period. That was also the period of greatest economic growth in America and the start of the industrial revolution.
Empirically speaking, I think the idea that businesses need loan money by creating credit out of thin air (note, savings which do not actually exist) isn't a very strong concept. There is very little evidence of this.
The loan market isn't supposed to be a bottomless well, just like every investment is not supposed to pay off. When capital (savings) are scarce, a market economy naturally adjusts consumption trends to create more savings by increasing the price of money. And when there are a surplus of savings, the market tends to incentivize consumption of the surplus by decreasing the price of money.
I wish I could explain this stuff better.
Now I am certain you have no idea what you're talking about. People have already forked it. Litecoins, for example. What's your point? If people make their own BTC, there still needs to develop a market for it. Also, a 10 year bubble when the market is completely free is a pretty hilarious notion coming from an expert in Austrian economics. This market corrects itself fast, as we saw in last year's crash.
If someone believes other than you, you label them a fanatic. It's cute, but it's evidence of your inability to actually grasp what you're arguing.
How long could this bubble last oh wise one with X-Ray vision? If it lasts 100 years, was it a bubble? If it lasts 5 years was it a bubble? Bitcoins are a means of transacting. And you can go ahead an argue that money or assets must be physical. Even if I conceded to those terms, the simple refutation is that that sort of money is no longer needed as evidenced by BitCoins. So, fine, define money as physical. It doesn't change the fact that BitCoins are doing exactly what money does for a larger and larger group of people. And if the market crashes, it will still do that, whatever it is will just cost more bitcoins. This isn't the argument of a fanatic, it's an argument of someone who can actually see the facts that are in front of them. But I do like that anyone who argues with you on Bitcoin is a fanatic. It really is a cute way to win the day on your part. The only fanatic here is the one who thinks that because he has a pre-computer understanding of currency, that his definition is somehow superior. Get over it. Fine don't call it currency. Call it something else. It doesn't change the fact that it looks, acts, and is used just like currency.