Bitcoin is not market money

guerilla

All we do is win
Aug 18, 2007
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From the V for Voluntary Wiki

wiki: Bitcoin

Please watch all 3 videos (you can skip Tulip Mania if you like) before commenting on the argument in the title.

Bitcoins are neat, have some interesting characteristics, but are not money qua money (as money).
 


Geez, listening to this guy talk is like trying to get over stuttering by reciting War and Peace... This is going to take a while...
 
I dunno whats worse, the idea of bitcoins as a currency or the people that use them.

Every time someone says bitcoins is a dumb idea all the people who use bitcoins go on a warpath bashing them. Kinda like religious nut cases. Then again if you did invest in something so stupid you would defend your actions at all costs because you don't wanna seem like an idiot for doing so.

But have you noticed that people who use bitcoins seem to be either 1 of 2 things.

1. young people, 17-25.
2. naive and sometimes, plain stupid. Guess it comes with the age.

Now if you used the bitcoin thing to get in and get out making some money off stupid people then you are not the people im talking about. You played it smart and made money off a stupid idea, good job.

But anyone here who actually believes in this bitcoin shit being a real currency... what kind of fantasy world are you living in? How stupid can you be to actually think this could ever work? One of the biggest arguments I hear about bitcoins is "the dollar isn't backed by anything, its a piece of paper. so whats so bad about bitcoins".

The problem is the dollar is pretty much has a monopoly in the currency world. It's like you trying to create your own operating system when microsoft was at its peak. Except its 100x worse than that because.

1. your operating system sucks.
2. nobody knows who you are.
3. your idea is a joke.
4. you hardly add anything of value.
5. the whole process is a pain in the ass.
6. and if you somehow managed to make it big enough to become a fly on the radar of government. You would be squashed like a bug.

I just wish I invested in this stupid idea earlier to make a killing on it. (not even sure i could of even got my money out if i did).

Also I'm laughing inside because there were some people on this board who really thought this was a great idea and invested in this shit when it was at like 16-20$ a bit coin. The rate has dropped like a rock since then and is around 5$ right now. Good luck bros.
 
Alright, I've made it through the 3 films.

Although I now know they are from Mises and I respect the people behind them, they are clearly making an assumption that currency cannot be a non-consumable commodity.

I fully see his point, it paints a clear HISTORY, but it is his OPINION that this will always be so in the future. Why can't the ability to be traded anonymously, or with no fear of inflation, be virtues that makes up a NEW commodity?

To say "money is only money because it can & will be consumed someday" is very obviously in error. If that were true, then it would be impossible for some bitcoin to have been traded before... But it has.

I will grant that in the history of money, as far as I can see, there are few to none examples of non-consumable money. (Notch-sticks in England perhaps? Wasn't the gold standard based on some notched sticks?) But times have changed and we have new options now of both buying and selling goods on the interwebz.

I heard that Austrian dudes' explanation of why money has always been a commodity. Now, I'm asking you bitcoin doubters; WHY DOES IT ALWAYS HAVE TO BE A COMMODITY IN THE FUTURE?

It's clear that we need better answers to our money problems. Gold will NEVER solve them, and fiat money is even worse. (Both have a controllable money supply.)

So I propose that a bitcoin, or another truly scarce, liquid, and anonymous Bit-currency that follows, IS a commodity just for properly being what it was designed to be. Because we DO NEED IT. -Just like the electronics industry needs gold.

Humanity NEEDS a stable currency.
Humanity NEEDS, more and more as time goes by, an Anonymous currency.

What else can do those? Nothing at all.

Bitcoin IS therefore needed and is therefore a new type of commodity.

Now, setting that aside, I'm kinda bearish myself on bitcoin... Not because it wouldn't be the most elegant solution to our problem, (it certainly would) but because the powers that be would literally kill us all rather than lose control over us all.

Only a more free society could use bitcoin; at the rate we're going now, it will be outlawed soon and the US president will raid any country on earth to overthrow the government there to ensure that country isn't harboring bitcoin miners and users... (Like we did with Saddam and Gaddafhi!)

I wouldn't be too surprised if eventually they stopped the flow of the internet into whole countries (yes, permanently) to ensure bitcoin doesn't go there.

Bottom line: To make bitcoin the #1 currency, we have to completely overthrow the most powerful people in the world, and they have all the armies in the world to stop us with.

Sucks to be human these days...
 
Every time someone says bitcoins is a dumb idea all the people who use bitcoins go on a warpath bashing them. Kinda like religious nut cases. Then again if you did invest in something so stupid you would defend your actions at all costs because you don't wanna seem like an idiot for doing so.
I own no bitcoins at all. Nada. I'm just one of many freedom lovers who would prefer their vast benefits over all alternatives.

Using the words "religious nut cases" on me was obviously designed to get under my skin... But if you read my response above you'll see no "faith" at all... Just appreciation of an elegant solution to mankinds' needs.

If you don't see it that way then you are totally ignorant of bitcoins and how they work.

But anyone here who actually believes in this bitcoin shit being a real currency... what kind of fantasy world are you living in? How stupid can you be to actually think this could ever work?
The fact that our overlords have Tanks and bombs and would gladly use them on me to stop this from taking grasp tells me you may be right... But for no other reason at all.

If the world was full of intelligent people who valued freedom, they would have risen up against our overlords long ago... And a Bitcoin-like currency would already have been the worldwide standard.

As it is we're just fuckin' fish in their barrel.


The problem is the dollar is pretty much has a monopoly in the currency world.
It's not the dollar itself; it's the power it represents to the owners who will kill you to keep that power. -Nothing more at all.

It's like you trying to create your own operating system when microsoft was at its peak. Except its 100x worse than that because.

1. your operating system sucks.
It's actually far, far superior. You should read up, son!

2. nobody knows who you are.
It's designed that way because anonymity is highly prized! Hell, the designer of the entire project went to great lengths to stay anonymous & distance himself from it so the shitstorm coming one day won't fall on him.

3. your idea is a joke.
Really, you should really read up. It's the most elegant solution imaginable to the many problems with currency, and if you don't see it that only proves that you aren't intelligent enough to understand.

4. you hardly add anything of value.
A currency that can be transferred in any denomination anywhere in the world without exposing any identities? Are you kidding? Or do you just hate freedom?

A currency that can be broadcast to other freaking planets because it has no physical ties at all? Seriously?

A currency that is literally IMPOSSIBLE to counterfeit? This adds no value over gold or fiat monies?? What are you smoking???

5. the whole process is a pain in the ass.
Enlighten me on how painful it is to 'process' Bitcoin. Appears as easy as processing USD online to me... Far easier in places like public wifi spots where you don't want anyone grabbing your insecure credit card numbers!

6. and if you somehow managed to make it big enough to become a fly on the radar of government. You would be squashed like a bug.
Finally you've got one point. But keep in mind that it wouldn't be that easy for them... Being so anonymous and border-free, killing bitcoins would be like killing every cockroach in new york as long as there are people somewhere willing to trade them with each other.

I really can't say how long it would take to kill bitcoin, but I do know to even attempt to squash them totally, the powers that be would have to blatantly kill many people, and I even believe would have to threaten the world directly not to use them, thereby exposing themselves for the first time.

It's shaping up to be one extremely interesting battle.
 
Yea yea blah blah its such a great idea. that's why its tanking. I guess people just don't believe in the freedom enough! Believe harder people.
 
Yea yea blah blah its such a great idea. that's why its tanking. I guess people just don't believe in the freedom enough! Believe harder people.
1. I don't know why it's been low lately, but dips happen in the gold market too.

2. Perhaps you're right about there not being enough belief in freedom. Our population is vast and our smart people are very, very, extremely very few. -Meanwhile only the smart will see the good in Bitcoin. The rest are fighting over food stamps...
 
I dunno whats worse, the idea of bitcoins as a currency or the people that use them.

Every time someone says bitcoins is a dumb idea all the people who use bitcoins go on a warpath bashing them. Kinda like religious nut cases. Then again if you did invest in something so stupid you would defend your actions at all costs because you don't wanna seem like an idiot for doing so.

But have you noticed that people who use bitcoins seem to be either 1 of 2 things.

1. young people, 17-25.
2. naive and sometimes, plain stupid. Guess it comes with the age.

Now if you used the bitcoin thing to get in and get out making some money off stupid people then you are not the people im talking about. You played it smart and made money off a stupid idea, good job.

But anyone here who actually believes in this bitcoin shit being a real currency... what kind of fantasy world are you living in? How stupid can you be to actually think this could ever work? One of the biggest arguments I hear about bitcoins is "the dollar isn't backed by anything, its a piece of paper. so whats so bad about bitcoins".

The problem is the dollar is pretty much has a monopoly in the currency world. It's like you trying to create your own operating system when microsoft was at its peak. Except its 100x worse than that because.

1. your operating system sucks.
2. nobody knows who you are.
3. your idea is a joke.
4. you hardly add anything of value.
5. the whole process is a pain in the ass.
6. and if you somehow managed to make it big enough to become a fly on the radar of government. You would be squashed like a bug.

I just wish I invested in this stupid idea earlier to make a killing on it. (not even sure i could of even got my money out if i did).

Also I'm laughing inside because there were some people on this board who really thought this was a great idea and invested in this shit when it was at like 16-20$ a bit coin. The rate has dropped like a rock since then and is around 5$ right now. Good luck bros.


You nailed it sir but am sure you will see some retards bashing you in next few hours with their great "Bitcoin" knowledge.

Lemme say this once again, "The currency has no value unless its accepted everywhere". How many people in the world accept bitcoins Vs people accepting dollars or for that matter the great " Kuwaiti dinar" :-)

Bitcoin could only remain as a online currency (if at all). As you said, there are so many idiots who put their entire savings into this BS currency,

Example: http://falkvinge.net/2011/05/29/why-im-putting-all-my-savings-into-bitcoin/
 
There was a write up in the economist on them the other day. Had me thinking about using cheap labor to farm and create virtual goods. Anybody do this sort of thing? Lindens, WoW gold, whatever?
 
1. your operating system sucks.
2. nobody knows who you are.
3. your idea is a joke.
4. you hardly add anything of value.
5. the whole process is a pain in the ass.
6. and if you somehow managed to make it big enough to become a fly on the radar of government. You would be squashed like a bug.

7.) You have to buy a bunch of high-end graphic cards, and basically setup a mini data-center in order to mine enough BitCoins to make it worth while. I have a hard time seeing that go mainstream. Can't see my parents rushing out to buy a bunch of CPUs and graphic cards so they can save money for home renovations.

I guess it'd be kinda neat for WoW guys who want to buy... whatever it is people buy on WoW, but can't see much else coming out of it.
 
Lemme say this once again, "The currency has no value unless its accepted everywhere".
So the Euro and the Dollar have no value?

There are certainly many countries that those two currencies aren't accepted in...

Bitcoin could only remain as a online currency (if at all).
How little imagination you have.

You see, there is this thing called TIME. If you advance it, more stuff happens. Stuff you likely can't think of now because it hasn't happened yet. But one day it will! Rest assured, it will.

As for the fool that dumped his savings into BTC, I agree that was foolish. I'm thinking of putting a mining rig together to get some, but I'd never buy any BTC until they are accepted many places and the price stops yo-yoing both.

Gotta admire the dude's spirit, his heart is in the right place, but his brain just wasn't quite all there...
 
7.) You have to buy a bunch of high-end graphic cards, and basically setup a mini data-center in order to mine enough BitCoins to make it worth while. I have a hard time seeing that go mainstream. Can't see my parents rushing out to buy a bunch of CPUs and graphic cards so they can save money for home renovations.
His 6 examples were about using bitcoins as currency, yours is about mining them.

If you want to get your hands on some, you could just try to buy them while they are cheap (Right now!) and get them far cheaper than you would mining...

Edit: But one great thing about mining rigs is that if BTC goes belly-up, you've still got a top-o-the-line gaming rig...
 
Farming bitcoins is pretty much worthless now, you need massive setup and you probably wont mine anything as valuable anyway. Waste of time, money and resources
 
Bitcoin could only remain as a online currency (if at all). As you said, there are so many idiots who put their entire savings into this BS currency,

Example: Why I’m Putting All My Savings Into Bitcoin - Falkvinge on Infopolicy

Nice. Leave it to a geek to explain why Bitcoin is so amazing...

  • Nobody logged on to a bank of any kind.
  • No bank page for complicated foreign transactions was loaded into any browser.
  • No expensive foreign transfer fees were applied. In fact, no transfer fees were applied at all.
  • No banks were holding on to the money for a couple of days. My friend had the money instantly.
  • No bank holidays were relevant. I did this on a Sunday.
  • No governmental economic blacklist was consulted. He could be a criminal under New Zealand law for all I care, but what matters to me is that he is my friend.
  • Nobody got the chance to seize the money before my friend in New Zealand got it. Or afterwards.
  • An alternative to a bank transfer would have been to use Visa or MasterCard. They did not get a cut, either.
  • No tax authority saw the transaction or the money.
....with each point simultaneously explaining why no government or authority would ever let this take over. It's just sad he went all in and didn't realize what he was actually saying.
 
Personally, I think this whole BitCoin thing is just an elaborate hoax. Well, not quite hoax. Just imagine how much CPU power the founders of BitCoin have at their disposal now. A whole hell of a lot.

Reminds me of the SETI@Home program, but more than likely, for devious purposes.
 
Nice. Leave it to a geek to explain why Bitcoin is so amazing...

....with each point simultaneously explaining why no government or authority would ever let this take over. It's just sad he went all in and didn't realize what he was actually saying.

so bitcoin fanboy, care to explain your point besides 3 lines random bashing?
 

^Day be extracting all dere labor value!


I think working for a real mining outfit like the one forum member Benji was talking about somewhere in the Yukon would be badass. My old man did that in the 70s and still knows tons of people up there with land. Giant corporations are leech-mining the fuck out of the mountains up there, but there are still people doing it the old fashioned way. Sounds 10x better than sitting in a cube farm.

4x5Sluice.jpg
 
Farming bitcoins is pretty much worthless now, you need massive setup and you probably wont mine anything as valuable anyway. Waste of time, money and resources
Nah, even if you're purely in it for the converted USD, you can still get in for a while before the payout drops again... But it will depend on two factors:

1. The current price of BTC. Right now it's about $5, which sucks crap. (In May it was only $1 but it was $13 very recently so it still feels bad man.)
2. The cost of power where you mine. (Chart here)

Let's say you spend $2k on a nice rig with 4x HD5870s, outputting 1.624 GigaHashes per second.

Right now at Mt. Gox, Each 100 MH/sec would give you 0.05657795 BTC/day. At rate $5.072 per BTC this gets you $0.2870/day

At 1.624GH/sec, that comes to $4.66 cents per day.

Then you have to pay back electricity, and let's say you pay $0.10 per KWH, which is right in the middle of the chart, slightly more than I pay here in KS.

There are 24 hours in the day so thats .1*24 or $2.40 per day if your rig drinks only one kilowatt per hour. I don't have the exact number but by looking at the charts there it appears it will not be drinking a whole KW per hour, more like 2/3rds or 3/4ths of one... So let's call it $2 per day in electricity costs.

Therefore, $4.66 - $2 = $2.66 Cash daily even at the shitty rate of $5 per BTC. Yeah, the $2k for your rig needs to be paid off first with that, but imagine a week or so ago when it was $13 a BTC.

You just gotta select good graphic cards. ATI HDs all the way. (Stuff you have to fight for on eBay, preferably.) Here are the best performers:

tumblr_loaam39Jid1qfy0bho1_500.gif


Whenever someone tells you it's too late, ask yourself if they:

A. Are miners themselves and don't want the competition
B. Haven't used a high-end ATI card to mine with so didn't break even
C. Are a Whitehouse/IMF/NATO/Chinese/other plant sent to derail the BTC. ;)

Anyway, the way I hear it is that when it's down like this, the miners are taking days off, and basically tweaking their rigs for max ghashes. When it goes up they get back at it. :thumbsup: