Obama supports plan for mosque near ground zero

nickycakes said:
Timothy McVeigh was catholic. Why the fuck are we allowing churches to be built near destroyed buildings.
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LOL at probably the worst analogy I have ever seen. You're kidding though I hope. He didn't commit these crimes in the name of Jesus in his religion like ly2 said.

Seriously, what the fuck is with you liberals and wanting to "point the finger" at Christianity. As we have already shown with the pope they are better at handling things like this (nuns in Aushwitz) than the Muslims. Fact, argument over. Bitch and whine all you want because some little priest might have touched you as a kid, the fact remains the same, WHEN PRESENTED WITH A VERY SIMILAR SITUATION the Christians did the right thing, and the Muslims which you liberals seem to have a strange fetish for, did not.
 


Ar Scion said:
Here's the thing dawg. I agree that what they are doing is stupid.

But they are at a certain distance away from ground zero. Like two blocks I think. If we're gonna tell them what they are doing is offensive, where do we draw the line?

Do we say 10 blocks from ground zero is non-mosque grounds? How do we frame what is and isn't morally acceptable for muslims or any religion in this situation?
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Good question. Where do you draw the line on completely retarded?
 
LOL at people who think they know Islam because they listen to conservative talk radio.

LOL at people who think they're informed because they listen to talk radio.

I've lived in a Muslim region for six months and honestly? I rather have a Mosque next to me versus a Church.
 
Soupyone said:
LOL at people who think they know Islam because they listen to conservative talk radio.

LOL at people who think they're informed because they listen to talk radio.
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I don't think you can pin this all on conservative talk radio. In the hours / days following 9/11, all of the major news networks were showing people in Islamic countries celebrating in the streets over the events that happened in NYC. That's going to create some negative sentiment. Do I think all Muslims are radical fundamentalists bent on the destruction of western ideals? Of course not, that's idiotic. I think one of the core issues is that the majority of moderate Muslims, are the silent majority. Not too many people speaking out and saying, "hey this isn't who we are, its just some crazy fucks doing this under the banner of our religion".

America stopped thinking a long time ago. We get our news in tiny sound bites, usually with spin (regardless of which media outlet and what way it's spun). You combine vocal crazy fucks, with a silent majority of moderates and a country full of people who don't know how to think anymore and you get strong anti Muslim sentiment in America. Shit like this only fuels it.

If a prominent Muslim religious leader came forward in the middle of all of this and said "Hey, we know we have the right to do this and we had nothing to do with the attacks (just some crazy fucks)...but out of respect for the people who died on 9/11, we're going to move the site away from ground zero a little" I think it would go a long way. Do they have to do it? Nope. Should they? I think so.
 
nickycakes said:
Timothy McVeigh was catholic. Why the fuck are we allowing churches to be built near destroyed buildings.
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You forgot to mention the Crusades. Those mutherfuckers were swinging broadswords in the name of JESUS!!!! You only mentioned Tim McVeigh. Im sure if you looked real hard you could find 3 or 4 more mentally ill so called Christians to make your point on how violent Christianity is.

ANYONE that compares Christianity to Muslim violence is fuckin STUPID.

The problem is that 3 or 4 people that are insane doing stupid shit in the name of Christianity is not really a problem. Millions of crazy fucked muslims doing stupid shit in the name of Allah IS a problem.

The Gallup Center for Muslim studies have estimated that as many as 37% of muslims are radical. Even more conservative estimates conducted by MANY groups would still put the number of radical crazy muslims in the MILLIONS.
 
nvanprooyen said:
I don't think you can pin this all on conservative talk radio. In the hours / days following 9/11, all of the major news networks were showing people in Islamic countries celebrating in the streets over the events that happened in NYC. That's going to create some negative sentiment. Do I think all Muslims are radical fundamentalists bent on the destruction of western ideals? Of course not, that's idiotic. I think one of the core issues is that the majority of moderate Muslims, are the silent majority. Not too many people speaking out and saying, "hey this isn't who we are, its just some crazy fucks doing this under the banner of our religion".
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This.

I realize the Muslm community/culture/religion doesn't have a Pope or centralized leader figure, but it's like there wasn't even a half-assed attempt by even American Muslims to denounce 9/11.
 
nvanprooyen said:
I don't think you can pin this all on conservative talk radio. In the hours / days following 9/11, all of the major news networks were showing people in Islamic countries celebrating in the streets over the events that happened in NYC. That's going to create some negative sentiment. Do I think all Muslims are radical fundamentalists bent on the destruction of western ideals? Of course not, that's idiotic. I think one of the core issues is that the majority of moderate Muslims, are the silent majority. Not too many people speaking out and saying, "hey this isn't who we are, its just some crazy fucks doing this under the banner of our religion".
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I don't know everyone's point of view over this, but here's mine:

I lost many (at least 20) people that were either 1 or two persons removed on 9/11 including my dad's only brother. My family left New York right after 9/11 in December and that was one of the deciding factors (read new beginning). With that said, I've seen how the majority of muslims live and in America I can honestly say they work harder to be obedient to God than any other mainstream group from a Western religion.

Plus Muslims aren't silent about where they stand, there's just so few + the media's aggressive slant you rarely hear from them.

I'll give you that you can't pin this on talk radio as I'd be wrong to do so. I remember how much flack Muslims were getting in New Jersey right after 9/11, but I can say that they're the ones leading this crusade against the Mosque right now.

They're promoting forms of bigotry then calling it anything but. They're doing it to Mexicans and Guatemalans, they're doing it to Muslims.

There used to be a time when America said to bring us "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free.", but instead you now have second and third generation Americans who don't understand that their grand parents came here by any means. Does that mean that people who feel like me support illegal immigration? Obviously not, heck my mother's whole side of the family immigrated here legally... But, they weren't coming from a 3rd world nation and were't desperate to do so.

I'm a first generation American and I'm damn proud to be as lucky as I was to be born here. If someone wants their piece of the American dream so much that they're willing to risk their lives to come over here I'll gladly have them. I bet they understand hard work more than most of us ever can.

As for what we consider radical: "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

We send tens of thousands of Marines overseas to "defend" freedom, then we say that they're the crazy aggressive ones. LMAO
 
I never understand the hatred against "those Muslims"..

Who are you hating against?

Your Turkish cleaning lady (The one who also makes great baklava)?
Your Pakistani grocery agent (The one with the happy "nice to see you" every time you shop there)?
Your Indian doctor (Who cured your child of that nasty cold)?

::emp::
 
nvanprooyen said:
If a prominent Muslim religious leader came forward in the middle of all of this and said "Hey, we know we have the right to do this and we had nothing to do with the attacks (just some crazy fucks)...but out of respect for the people who died on 9/11, we're going to move the site away from ground zero a little" I think it would go a long way. Do they have to do it? Nope. Should they? I think so.
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I have to disagree with you here, Nate. PLENTY of muslims denounced 9/11 over and over again. but it doesn't really matter. America was pissed, they will always be pissed and they feel the need to direct that rage somewhere. Any previous protests have been lost in the deafening tsnaumi of that rage. Besides eventually they are going to get angry too that they always have to be on the defense. You don't see the US on the defense all the time for invading entire countries and destroying civilizations do you?

It's that self justified rage that will be the downfall of this country. Patriotism is the US prefered religion and it is more violent and more deadly than Islam could ever be hope to be.
 
Soupyone said:
I'm a first generation American and I'm damn proud to be as lucky as I was to be born here. If someone wants their piece of the American dream so much that they're willing to risk their lives to come over here I'll gladly have them. I bet they understand hard work more than most of us ever can.
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Getting way off topic now but.....

I totally agree with you on this. Lazy, entitled American's didn't build this country. The kind of people some are fighting so hard to keep out did. In some ways, I think that makes the illegals more American than a lot of "real" Americans. Not suggesting that we don't have policies and laws for immigration, but the way things are structured now is idiotic. We create incentive for people to come here illegally and for employers to hire those people (since they have no legal rights under the DOL etc). Flame away.
 
popeye said:
The Gallup Center for Muslim studies have estimated that as many as 37% of muslims are radical. Even more conservative estimates conducted by MANY groups would still put the number of radical crazy muslims in the MILLIONS.
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Wouldn't that be a pretty good argument as to why not to interfere with a mosque being legally housed on private property. To single out a religious group with the same constitutional protection as the rest of us, would more than likely increase that number when those on the fence feel they have the validity of "America"'s hatred and oppression towards their kind.

If anything should be doing more to convert them to tolerance (and ourselves in the process) rather than justifying the radicals' agenda.
 
I really don't see the huge problem people have with religion. Atheists seem to despise it and wish it would completely vanish. No churches, mosques, synagogues, etc.

Think about this : is religion, as a whole, really that bad? (Don't quote that line without reading the rest of my post)

We've talked plenty about the few bad apples that really have done some damage, but most of us have agreed that for the most part peoples of all religions are non-violent. Most religions preach love for others and peace, and it rubs off on BILLIONS of people. And a lot of these people (from what I've seen of Christianity at least) are those with bad and sometimes violent pasts. Religion takes these people and converts them into something much more humane.

Of course it gives people an excuse to rape, murder, etc...but these types of people obviously have some mental issues and would most likely find an excuse to commit these acts anyways. Religion is just an easy outlet to use (hell, I bet a lot of terrorists could give 2 shits about religion and just want to terrorize because that's what they were raised to do). There will ALWAYS be corrupt humans on this planet, if religion wasn't around there would be another reason to terrorize and kill.

Islam I'm not the biggest fan of because still to this day is teaching outdated and fundamental philosophies that is leading to a shitton of current violence.

What I really don't understand is why so many people here bash Christianity like it's AIDs. There are some fucked up old popes who rape little boys and yeah...that's a problem. But what about the billions of people that leave church every day with the message that the best way to live life is to just give to others and try to be a good person? Church is a great place for people with problems...financial problems, relationship problems, family problems. A lot of these people get broken down to nothing and use the church as a last resort...and many times it gives these people hope and gets them back on their feet.

Take Joe...loses his job and is down to nothing in life. He might start going to the bar every night and getting hammered, then driving home. One night he kills himself or somebody else, or both (we all know the numbers on drunk driving deaths). There are a shitton of Christians who were like Joe, but found their answer in the church and turned things around. That's 1 less potential drunk driving accident thanks to religion. And it's not like this is a rare occurrence, thousands of people every day are "saved" as they would call it.

I can understand skepticism on Christianity and why atheists don't believe in it, but I don't understand the constant bashing of it. It really gives me a bad view of atheists, you all seem like such bitter people who just want to prove that every Christian is stupid and has their brain filled with spaghetti. As mentioned in this thread, popes raping kids has nothing to do with the issue of building a mosque near ground zero.

Christianity saves more lives then atheism ever will...maybe you should appreciate that a little more.
 
SUP3RNOVA said:
I really don't see the huge problem people have with religion. Atheists seem to despise it and wish it would completely vanish. No churches, mosques, synagogues, etc.

Think about this : is religion, as a whole, really that bad? (Don't quote that line without reading the rest of my post)

We've talked plenty about the few bad apples that really have done some damage, but most of us have agreed that for the most part peoples of all religions are non-violent. Most religions preach love for others and peace, and it rubs off on BILLIONS of people. And a lot of these people (from what I've seen of Christianity at least) are those with bad and sometimes violent pasts. Religion takes these people and converts them into something much more humane.

Of course it gives people an excuse to rape, murder, etc...but these types of people obviously have some mental issues and would most likely find an excuse to commit these acts anyways. Religion is just an easy outlet to use (hell, I bet a lot of terrorists could give 2 shits about religion and just want to terrorize because that's what they were raised to do). There will ALWAYS be corrupt humans on this planet, if religion wasn't around there would be another reason to terrorize and kill.

Islam I'm not the biggest fan of because still to this day is teaching outdated and fundamental philosophies that is leading to a shitton of current violence.

What I really don't understand is why so many people here bash Christianity like it's AIDs. There are some fucked up old popes who rape little boys and yeah...that's a problem. But what about the billions of people that leave church every day with the message that the best way to live life is to just give to others and try to be a good person? Church is a great place for people with problems...financial problems, relationship problems, family problems. A lot of these people get broken down to nothing and use the church as a last resort...and many times it gives these people hope and gets them back on their feet.

Take Joe...loses his job and is down to nothing in life. He might start going to the bar every night and getting hammered, then driving home. One night he kills himself or somebody else, or both (we all know the numbers on drunk driving deaths). There are a shitton of Christians who were like Joe, but found their answer in the church and turned things around. That's 1 less potential drunk driving accident thanks to religion. And it's not like this is a rare occurrence, thousands of people every day are "saved" as they would call it.

I can understand skepticism on Christianity and why atheists don't believe in it, but I don't understand the constant bashing of it. It really gives me a bad view of atheists, you all seem like such bitter people who just want to prove that every Christian is stupid and has their brain filled with spaghetti. As mentioned in this thread, popes raping kids has nothing to do with the issue of building a mosque near ground zero.

Christianity saves more lives then atheism ever will...maybe you should appreciate that a little more.
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Religion was cool back in the day, we wouldn't be where we are today without religion. HOWEVER, it's getting a bit ridiculous now...it's 2010.

What's scarier is some religions seem to actually be going even more backwards. Most religions move ahead, admittedly very very VERY slowly. Islam on the other hand seems to be going full-steam backwards. There was an awesome picture of some Afghan city form like 1965 and the exact same picture in 2008. In 1965 it was full of normal people walking around, in the newer one everyone was wearing bed sheets lol
 
kblessinggr said:
Wouldn't that be a pretty good argument as to why not to interfere with a mosque being legally housed on private property. To single out a religious group with the same constitutional protection as the rest of us, would more than likely increase that number when those on the fence feel they have the validity of "America"'s hatred and oppression towards their kind.

If anything should be doing more to convert them to tolerance (and ourselves in the process) rather than justifying the radicals' agenda.
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appeasing radicals/terrorist doesn't work. It never has it just emboldens them. The only response a radical responds to is a fist in the face.

If the so called "moderate" muslims won't get rid of the radicals among them then someone has too. The problem is the "moderates" won't do it because they understand that the radicals are the true muslims. The radicals are faithfully following the koran as it was written. The moderates are the bastards in the true word of Allah.

I have seen dozens of interviews with "moderates" and not ONE of them would denouce Hamas. Why? because they know that Hamas follows the true word of Allah. Most of the Moderate muslims are only practicing a basterdized form of Islam because they HAVE To. Radical/true muslim beliefs are frowned upon in most western countrys.
 
popeye said:
appeasing radicals/terrorist doesn't work. It never has it just emboldens them. The only response a radical responds to is a fist in the face.

If the so called "moderate" muslims won't get rid of the radicals among them then someone has too. The problem is the "moderates" won't do it because they understand that the radicals are the true muslims. The radicals are faithfully following the koran as it was written. The moderates are the bastards in the true word of Allah.
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Who is a appeasing a radical? did anyone confirm the proposed mosque to be that of a radical group specifically?

True muslims following the Quran as it was written... would hate to see an equally "true" Christian or Jew then, 'moderate' christians had no problems getting rid of them when they murdered a queer or beat their children for disobedience.
 
kblessinggr said:
True muslims following the Quran as it was written... would hate to see an equally "true" Christian or Jew then, 'moderate' christians had no problems getting rid of them when they murdered a queer or beat their children for disobedience.
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Sure the bible says spare the rod spoil the child in there. I'd rather take something like that literally than "exterminate all non-believers". I hate comparing the two religions because it is so off topic from this issue but it seems unavoidable because all you liberals come out from under the woodwork any chance you get to bash Christianity (and Jews in this case I guess).

Let me say this, if you think Christians or Jews have been more responsible for violence in the name of religion than Muslims in the past 35 years, you're FUCKING insane. No I don't have some weird ass statistic for this, its coming fucking sense. No does that need to be changed, absolutely. But people who can't admit that to themselves I don't even bother trying to argue because you're just lying to yourselves. So please stop comparing Christianity with Muslims. Yeah you can go back to the crusades sure they were worse them, but this is 2010 homies the problem isn't the Christians with violence. Sure they have their problems with the priests, but afaik they aren't trying to exterminate all non believers,

(Preparing myself for the racist comments because I told the truth).
 
adigitalorange said:
Sure the bible says spare the rod spoil the child in there. I'd rather take something like that literally than "exterminate all non-believers". I hate comparing the two religions because it is so off topic from this issue but it seems unavoidable because all you liberals come out from under the woodwork any chance you get to bash Christianity (and Jews in this case I guess).

Let me say this, if you think Christians or Jews have been more responsible for violence in the name of religion than Muslims in the past 35 years, you're FUCKING insane. No I don't have some weird ass statistic for this, its coming fucking sense. No does that need to be changed, absolutely. But people who can't admit that to themselves I don't even bother trying to argue because you're just lying to yourselves. So please stop comparing Christianity with Muslims. Yeah you can go back to the crusades sure they were worse them, but this is 2010 homies the problem isn't the Christians with violence. Sure they have their problems with the priests, but afaik they aren't trying to exterminate all non believers,

(Preparing myself for the racist comments because I told the truth).
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We have a Christian military buddy.

"I'm not your buddy guy!"
 
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