Suck a Dick Vivera/Opes/Mike/Mitch/DEE

[JuiceFigNewton]

this has nothing to do with whether or not rebill offers align with your ethics... if your brain had the capacity to think intelligently, you would understand the issue here is the ongoing problem of bad business practice by advertisers and affiliate networks

Oh is that what you call it? "bad business practice"? Yes, you are correct, fly by night networks signing up fly by night affiliates all in it to get rich by scamming people into perpetual credit card charges on a free trial offer by fly by night companies who push snake oil products certainly is a bad business practice.

FWIW, most criminals, scammers, dealers, and con men accept a few basic premises when they engage in the businesses that they do.

1. Easy money doesn't last long
2. Easy money isn't always easy
3. When you set out to scam people; you sometimes end up getting scammed.
4. When the hammer falls; don't be under it and be ready to accept a loss of income while you start up a new scam
5. Always have a new con waiting in the wings.


Again, I find it funny when people with little business experience think they are great business people because they stumbled upon a scam that makes them some quick easy cash; in this case rebillers. Then I find it even funnier when they have the audacity to complain when the wheels fall of the scam and they get dicked.

Tell you what you should do. Have the network give you the names and numbers of all the customers requesting a chargeback (or their credit card companies). Explain to them that you are the owner of a website that had an advertisement or sent and email that led them to the landing page for the free smaple that ended up costing them $200. Ask them (in a very serious tone); why would you cancel this service and request your money back? Then be prepared to get shit thrown at you.

The lesson here: If you want to be a shady business making shady money be prepared to get screwed sometimes. If you want to be a legit business making legit and long term money through hard work and sustained growth; lease a lower end car and stop fronting with the Patron at Affiliate Summits.

Or for God's sake at least align yourself with a bigger player that won't close up shop and move out in the middle of the night.


P.S. The "get a brain" line of argument was weaksauce.

 

[defelice]

oh snap

 

[mkrongel]

I figured i would post in here to set some things straight.

The scrubs from these offers are related to two things.

Duplicate orders- the advertiser has been firing the pixel for people who come back two three days in a row and attempt to buy the product again. These people will result in chargebacks or are fraud. Either way they are bad orders for the business model, it is a shame the advertiser cant technically stop this on the front end. They say they are working on it but we will see how long that could take.

Pick up card declines - These are cards that get through for the 99 cent charge but then get flagged as stolen when the 1st reoccuring charge is attempted. These are the nastiest of all charges on the advertisers side and will result in high chargebacks and what has brought other continuity offers down. This is most likely consumer fraud, they know the game, and how to get around it, they buy the free trial then call and cancel their cards.

Between these two issues it makes up 6-10% of orders coming through. We have requested the advertiser absorb these scrubs on their end. We have continued to go back and forth on a resolution that satisfies all. The advertiser doesn't want to pay for what they see as fraud. Pubs want to be paid for what they see as being credited, as a network in the middle we want to ensure both sides are happy, will either side get their way 100%, definitely not but there is a middle ground to be had to help keep things going.

We work with other continuity advertisers in the space like Gunthy Renker, P90X, and others. These offers explicitly state chargebacks will be scrubbed from publisher payments, this is very common in the as seen on TV/infomercial continuity space and is finding its way in to affiliate marketing as well.

I am sure we will resolve the scrubs issue with the advertiser. We have already agreed on a go forward to offer a no chargeback/scrub offer that pays less but wont be hit with chargebacks due to the lower payout helping to cushion the 2 issues above.

I have told the advertiser and others in this space that the only way to really stabilize this space and ensure its long term growth is to control the distribution of offers to a small group of individuals. Just like in ringtones (The previous wild west) it grew, got hit with scrutiny, cut off many partners and worked with a limited few they could ensure quality and reduce the scrutiny. Same thing will happen here, either a handful of pubs will be direct or one network will have the products. Its really the only way to ensure that the lines are not crossed on either end.

 

[Crisis]

Duplicate orders- the advertiser has been firing the pixel for people who come back two three days in a row and attempt to buy the product again. These people will result in chargebacks or are fraud. Either way they are bad orders for the business model, it is a shame the advertiser cant technically stop this on the front end. They say they are working on it but we will see how long that could take.

Do you really believe this? That an advertiser who can set up a massive operation generating hundreds of thousands, if not millions in revenue expects us to believe that they can't effectively strip out duplicate orders before they are credited? I've never worked in the rebill space or with products like this but from the outside it looks like the advertiser plays the customer, affiliates and the networks to squeeze those profits. I guess that's the game you play when you're pushing such shady shit.

 

[The kizz]

I have told the advertiser and others in this space that the only way to really stabilize this space and ensure its long term growth is to control the distribution of offers to a small group of individuals. Just like in ringtones (The previous wild west) it grew, got hit with scrutiny, cut off many partners and worked with a limited few they could ensure quality and reduce the scrutiny. Same thing will happen here, either a handful of pubs will be direct or one network will have the products. Its really the only way to ensure that the lines are not crossed on either end.

100% right on. I'm surprised more affiliates havent realized this and attempted to make those direct relationships...If you havent done so already...

 

[mkrongel]

Do you really believe this? That an advertiser who can set up a massive operation generating hundreds of thousands, if not millions in revenue expects us to believe that they can't effectively strip out duplicate orders before they are credited? I've never worked in the rebill space or with products like this but from the outside it looks like the advertiser plays the customer, affiliates and the networks to squeeze those profits. I guess that's the game you play when you're pushing such shady shit.

Yes.

You cant put the CC number on a DB thats open on the net its against PCI compliance, so to check the CC's in real time is impossible. If someone buys 3 free trials of acai berry on one CC when it comes time to rebill those orders the one CC will have multiple charges on it for the same product, causing the bank to charge it all back automatically.

 

[BigWill]

Again, I find it funny when people with little business experience think they are great business people because they stumbled upon a scam that makes them some quick easy cash; in this case rebillers. Then I find it even funnier when they have the audacity to complain when the wheels fall of the scam and they get dicked.

.

This. I can't wait till this "industry" thins out. Its really become pretty messed up over the last 5-6 years.

 

[productionhead]

Yes.

You cant put the CC number on a DB thats open on the net its against PCI compliance, so to check the CC's in real time is impossible. If someone buys 3 free trials of acai berry on one CC when it comes time to rebill those orders the one CC will have multiple charges on it for the same product, causing the bank to charge it all back automatically.

eh the way some of these advertisers push upsells i'd be suprised if they are PCI compliant, as some of that data is moving all over

also, they could scrub against address/full name duplicates...

I for one think these chargebacking advertisers are just pushing their chargeback costs onto the affiliates (saying duplicates or pick up card declines is just a scapegoat when those occurences are probably really miniscule compared to the chargebacks being caused from customer mismanagement aka scammy rebills), when it's up to them to handle that... they're the ones who signed on to take the risk of chargebacks (and it's also their duty to take care of the customers so they don't have to chargeback - but STILL, what sort of helpful customer service exists for $150 sugar pills sold through lies?), not affiliates...

But you affiliates are also liable in a sense, look at your flogs and farticles, telling people they can achieve miracles in finance and health for low or no cost...

 

[BigWill]

Oh and FYI the solution is you pay out on %/Revshare. When you pay a flat sale the affiliate is NOT obligated to take any charge backs, its pretty much the standard and has been. Thats what you are doing, paying per sale, not per rebill. The merchant needs to factor the chargebacks into their payout and pay less.

IE $25 per free trial (or whatever the fuck they can afford to pay, jesus christ.)

or

%50-%80 rev share. ($2 per signup, $60-$80 per successfull bill, $10 per month paid to afs)

Nubs.

 

[bb_wolfe]

I have told the advertiser and others in this space that the only way to really stabilize this space and ensure its long term growth is to control the distribution of offers to a small group of individuals.

That's easy to say when you're at the top of the food chain (which is good for you), but ultimately it stifles competition (which is good for you), creates a monopolistic environment laden with collusion, fraud, and everything else that goes along with it (which is good for you), and in the end leaves all but the largest well-funded affiliates at the mercy of the Azoogles and Copeacs. (Which is bad for us.)

Folks, lots of guys run their own offers on a small scale, don't think that because Dee or any of the other huge players have exclusives with the networks, that you can't make money (lots of it) on your own, it's just a shitload of work.

 

[crackp0t]

Call me naive, but how hard would it be to force advertisers to prepay for leads? And then cap the offers at their prepaid count... And fully disclose how many leads are left to be had? Sounds crazy but might keep people honest.. And put a stop to the "well we're fucked by the FTC/Oprah/Visa/MC/Poor Planning/Ahh fuck it, let's just shave" attitude

When I approached a couple affiliate networks with a product I wanted the same thing. I said hey I'll prepay you for X number of leads. Guess what I was told.

That's fine, but you won't get your offer ran, because of the cap. Affiliates don't like caps so our ams won't recommend it and it won't get traffic.

 

[bgd2010]

Yes.

You cant put the CC number on a DB thats open on the net its against PCI compliance, so to check the CC's in real time is impossible. If someone buys 3 free trials of acai berry on one CC when it comes time to rebill those orders the one CC will have multiple charges on it for the same product, causing the bank to charge it all back automatically.

You can scrub on billing address, last name and last 4 of CC, or email address. All of those are compliant.

 

[guerilla]

Smaxor's post was awesome. Learned a lot. Thanks!

 

[janny]

Sorry Which Company your are talking about?

 

[Sohan]

Also, they are blocking duplicate offers. Go buy it, then go back to the page with a link and you won't see the order page any more. It's some page thats like na.html or w/e.

The product is actually decent quality (packaging etc).

 

[anoko]

yeah ongoing validation of ip against order history records.

 

[smaxor]

When I approached a couple affiliate networks with a product I wanted the same thing. I said hey I'll prepay you for X number of leads. Guess what I was told.

That's fine, but you won't get your offer ran, because of the cap. Affiliates don't like caps so our ams won't recommend it and it won't get traffic.

We'll take your trial deal with a prepay. NP. My pubs have no issues with caps if it's a good offer.

 

[sgtryan]

Yes, you are correct, fly by night networks signing up fly by night affiliates all in it to get rich by scamming people into perpetual credit card charges on a free trial offer by fly by night companies who push snake oil products certainly is a bad business practice.

lol u mad

I agree that some of these advertisers are "fly-by-night" and that is the bad business practice I was referring to... saying the entire CPA industry and affiliates who have pushed these offers are "fly-by-night" makes me think you don't know much about this industry or it's players _at all_. just because some people promote rebill offers and you don't doesn't mean it's not legit business and a hustle.. yeah, it may be easier money and less in alignment with your ethics, but that's just up to personal choice.

I find it funny when people with little business experience think they are great business people because they stumbled upon a scam that makes them some quick easy cash; in this case rebillers

are you serious? just because you take the "higher moral ground" and promote offers that are more aligned with your ethical thought process does NOT mean that you run a "more legit" business. besides, the smart affiliates aren't investing all their time into rebills and find success in other niches because of their success with rebills.. guess what bud? there are TONS of shady advertisers out there and it has nothing to do with rebills vs. non-rebills.

in any vertical there will be "fly-by-night" advertisers, legit or not.

Duplicate orders- the advertiser has been firing the pixel for people who come back two three days in a row and attempt to buy the product again. These people will result in chargebacks or are fraud. Either way they are bad orders for the business model, it is a shame the advertiser cant technically stop this on the front end. They say they are working on it but we will see how long that could take.

so that would assume that 20-30% of the customers attempted to purchase the product again some way or another? that is bullshit :-/ and YES, they can stop this on their frontend.. if they recognize a duplicate IP, then don't fire the pixel! it's not rocket science

 

[Moldingbox]

+ Rep for Smax

 

[majorbta]

lol u mad
so that would assume that 20-30% of the customers attempted to purchase the product again some way or another? that is bullshit :-/ and YES, they can stop this on their frontend.. if they recognize a duplicate IP, then don't fire the pixel! it's not rocket science

No adsonar or AOL traffic would back then, considering they put a ton of people behind the same few IPs