Welfare... Fucking pisses me off

Oh yeah, as wealthy as Steven Hawking is, he gets a shitload of money to pay for his medical expenses from the British Government. Odd example now isn't it?
 


This film is a must-watch for all socialists:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs]George Ought to Help - YouTube[/ame]

(And that goes double for you; tspesh!)
 
lukep said:
This film is a must-watch for all socialists:
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I really don't think it's fair to call me a socialist.

I think the most efficient society has balance. Completely free markets have proven to not work. Completely socialist societies have proven not to work.
 
tspesh said:
I really don't think it's fair to call me a socialist.

I think the most efficient society has balance. Completely free markets have proven to not work. Completely socialist societies have proven not to work.
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Really? Because if you're going to cite the past recession which was caused by quasi-governmental market manipulation please just stop now.

Free markets are far more efficient than governments. Regulation and social entitlements are two entirely different things.

Regulation: Hey British Petroleum, clean up your shit!
Entitlements: Hey Danke, those corporate taxes you've just paid for running a highly efficient business that built enough value to actually convince someone to pay your their hard earned money? Yeah, we're going to take that money and spend it on someone who we can't hold accountable.

BTW, I gave a good percentage of my net income to charity last year and none of it was religious.

Feed the Children, LiveStrong, The Fallen Heroes Fund, and The American Red Cross. Groups that help people WHILE they're in need, not giving a check to people to sit on their asses to wait for another check. Or the fuck up brother who is a detriment to society (btw LukeP I have my own fuck up "brother" and I'm pretty sure he knows exactly how I feel about him).

Everyone should be held accountable for your own actions. If you need help: family, if family isn't enough then charities. If charities don't think you need it? Peace out homeslice.

And stop bringing up wars, none of us are voting for people to blow up shit.
 
tspesh said:
Here's the deal, a lot of lazy mother fuckers take advantage of the system and it's bullshit. I actually agree with that.

But every society has some people that are truly helpless. No society has moved forward without it pulling together a little bit. Additionally, the societies that are left to the Alpha Males don't do so well.

All this social Darwinism ignores the fact that Humans moved to the top of the animal kingdom because they started to figure out how to use their superior brains to band together and work together.

A lot is broken in our government, including taxes, including our welfare system.

Catholic Priests have been raping little boys, we should probably get rid of religion after we get rid of welfare.

You leave someone like my brother to his own and he ends up on the street living under a viaduct. He has had hte help of his family, and he continues to have the help of his family, but legally there is only so much that his family can do. Until you've lived it, you really can't understand.

My brother isn't lazy, he's fucking bat-shit crazy. He doesn't have the capacity to be lazy.
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I also have a family member who is skizophrenic and I do agree it's not as simple as telling or forcing them to get a job. They would most likely prefer to stay as homeless begging for money than conform to strict demands. I bet most homeless are skizophrenic in fact. Still, exclusion from society is more of an issue than lack of money. If there was more personal charity and community spirit, there might be a place for these people, doing odd jobs and being part of society. As of now, they're just subsidized to stay out of the way of the rest of population.
 
tspesh said:
I really don't think it's fair to call me a socialist.
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LULZ!

You don't just accept welfare, but you support the system that gives it to you... What could be more socialist than that?

tspesh said:
Completely free markets have proven to not work.
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BULLSHIT. Completely free markets have never existed on this planet in human times. Since our earliest tribes started to come down out of the trees they were already acting in dictatorships and communes. It takes a very smart race indeed to come up with the full concept of a completely free society. I might go one step further and say it will require automatic electronic debits to do so as well.
 
Ok, I'm not going to get too far into it, but growing up with my sister my mom was a single mom busting her ass working two jobs and she could hardly pull rent. At several points in my childhood we were without transportation, and she literally walked 3-4 miles to work everyday. We were on welfare and without it, to be honest I don't know how we would have made it. After awhile my mom completed a degree and now works as a contract manager making good money..

So I guess, no, I don't hate welfare at all.
 
geomark said:
That is unfortunate and I hope he gets good help...but not at my expense; I'm taking care of my own. I donate regularly...to the charity of MY choice. There is no valid justification for money to be taken from me at gunpoint (it would come to that if I refused) whether by a thug on the street or the government.
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I have recently stopped giving to charity. Well public charity. In-staid of giving to randoms I no longer know, I give to family, friends, friends of friends, friends of family.

I find this a lot more rewarding for the people around me.

I think more people should start doing it. It also helps solve the freeloader/government/charity handout problem.

I know that was kind of off topic but I am trying to spread this practice to other successful people.
 
BigWill said:
I have recently stopped giving to charity. Well public charity. In-staid of giving to randoms I no longer know, I give to family, friends, friends of friends, friends of family.

I find this a lot more rewarding for the people around me.

I think more people should start doing it. It also helps solve the freeloader/government/charity handout problem.

I know that was kind of off topic but I am trying to spread this practice to other successful people.
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That really is the way to do it. Make your own judgements about who and what are worthy of your support, instead of leaving it to government to decide since the ineptness and corruption of government is well known, indeed legendary. It is difficult to do, however, since government confiscates your money under threat of violence.

If you have personal ethics and really want to stop supporting the vile things that government does you have to find ways to avoid taxes. It might seem crazy to the money hungry ballers in this forum but one way is to simply make less money. If you know how to live well on less you can pay a lot less in taxes and still have great quality of life.
 
lukep said:
LULZ!
You don't just accept welfare, but you support the system that gives it to you... What could be more socialist than that?
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I support an efficient and effective system that helps lift our needy off the dirt and into a productive spot in society. I don't think our current system does a very good job at that.

There is the real and the ideal. The problem with political debate with this country is that people feel the need to pick teams. My insinuation that there is a legitimate and useful need to help unfortunate members of our society shouldn't automatically throw me onto the "liberal" "socialist" team.

People that think in those terms are not very intelligent. Sorry you can't think outside the box a little.
 
There is indeed a "legitimate and useful need to help unfortunate members of our society." But having it done by force via the government is the wrong way and leads to all the examples of abuse mentioned in this thread. I don't know what all these different labels of liberal or socialist or whatever mean and I don't care. But if you can't think of a better way to help the needy than via government welfare then it is you that have the narrow thinking.
 
geomark said:
There is indeed a "legitimate and useful need to help unfortunate members of our society." But having it done by force via the government is the wrong way and leads to all the examples of abuse mentioned in this thread. I don't know what all these different labels of liberal or socialist or whatever mean and I don't care. But if you can't think of a better way to help the needy than via government welfare then it is you that have the narrow thinking.
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Who said that was the only way?

I just don't think it's immoral. If you're making money in this country, you're benefiting from the system. It's not that hard of a concept.
 
tspesh said:
Who said that was the only way?

I just don't think it's immoral. If you're making money in this country, you're benefiting from the system. It's not that hard of a concept.
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I make money in Canada too, am I benefiting from that system?
 
tspesh said:
Who said that was the only way?

I just don't think it's immoral. If you're making money in this country, you're benefiting from the system. It's not that hard of a concept.
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If anything is the very definition of immoral it is taking another person's property by force.
 
tspesh said:
So we should pay no taxes?
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That's a bit of a non sequitir. And it implies that the use of force is the only way to collect taxes.

Veering off on a tagent for a moment, I would say we should pay very much less in taxes than we do, a tiny fraction. And those taxes should be collected by means other than the threat of violence by the state.

Back to the point: use of force to confiscate another persons property is inherently immoral, whether it's a thug in the street or the government.
 
geomark said:
That's a bit of a non sequitir. And it implies that the use of force is the only way to collect taxes.

Veering off on a tagent for a moment, I would say we should pay very much less in taxes than we do, a tiny fraction. And those taxes should be collected by means other than the threat of violence by the state.

Back to the point: use of force to confiscate another persons property is inherently immoral, whether it's a thug in the street or the government.
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So your issue with welfare is the methods in which the taxes that fund it are collected?

What is your solution then?

I hear a lot of bitching, the only solution I see is "Fuck the poor people" and "The wealthy will take care of the poor, if only they weren't forced to pay taxes"
 
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