PHP Vs ASP How To Choose A Web Development Language.

[Aequitas]

I just read a post asking which language should someone learn and I started to type and realized that it was so long it deserved its own thread for everyone to find and ponder upon so here it is.

First off I know most people here will jump up and say learn PHP right away its the best well in my own option PHP is useless I tell you USELESS, well ok I'm wrong on that part. PHP is good for finding scripts, everyone and their dog has learned PHP (Except for me), PHP is and can be a powerful language but what is the best web development language for you because PHP is simply not for everyone. Lets Begin.

In my mind PHP is a harder language to learn because it deals with C++ as a base code which means you've got to put a little ; at the end of every fucking line and use <% PHP %> strange ass syntax. You see I've never learned PHP but I can understand it. I can also build some kick ass interactive websites, e-commerce, personal, whatever...I can build it without PHP.

I personally recommened ASP.NET 2.0 and VBScript or C++, now you should also be learning about XHTML because HTML is now an expired language, and you should learn about Web 2.0 (Which is not hard), after that get to know your CSS.

So the basics are XHTML, Web 2.0 Design, & CSS.

From their you can go more advanced and add some interactivity, you can use Microsoft Visual Studio Web Developer (Its free), and learn some ASP.NET 2.0.... their are shit loads of resources and its easy to learn, now the real toss up.

Should you learn VBScript or C++, well I find VBScript super easy to learn and with everything else I'm mentioning here there are tons of resources on that subject but their has always been a debate between VBScript developers and C++ developers because once you get SUPER advanced in web development and coding. VBScript starts to loose power (there are less resources to look upon and learn from) this could be because its a newer language then C++.

Now C++ on the other hand is harder to learn, they do some fucked up shit that VBScript doesn't do, the upside to the downfall learning curve is the power of C++, if you learn C++ then you can easily learn PHP right after learning ASP.NET 2.0, there will virtually be no learning curve.

So which one should someone use is the real question?, well any real web developer will simply tell you to learn both. Why? Its simple learning VBScript when your new to programming is super easy to do and its powerful for doing little things here and their, it gets you familiar with programming practice in general but then once you get the hang of things you can advance over to C++ learning how to do some super powerful things.

Lets do a summery here shall we....

ASP.NET 2.0 can be used with VBScript & C++.
ASP.NET 2.0 can use both mySQL or SQL.

PHP is built upon a C++ language.
PHP deals with mySQL (We will get to that in a moment).

Now you should be able to make a choice, as I stated previously I can create some kick ass super interactive websites and I use ASP.NET 2.0 with VBScript, notice how I never got around to learning C++ or PHP?, I can still understand most of C++ and PHP but I'll have a hard time coding it from scratch......So the choice is up to you but you've got lots of options.

Now onto SQL and mySQL, whats the difference, well mySQL was originally supposed to be a free version of SQL but since SQL 2005 came out as a free version mySQL is kind of pointless, unless you'll be dealing with Wordpress a fuck of a lot.

This now brings us into a smaller language which you'll learn a bit about by doing PHP or ASP and that language is known as ADO or ADO.NET now ADO is a programming language for the SQL database, ADO will simply teach you how to access the information inside the database, which data types you should be using, how to use certain controls and how to access all of those things programmically. (Sorry for the spelling).

Now the choice of what to use with your web development SQL 2005 or mySQL?, this is the same question as VBScript or C++ because in my eyes SQL 2005 is much much easier to learn then mySQL because the data access is much easier to get at in SQL 2005 and its just as secure. So again a bit of research into both of these should lead you in the direction you want to take.

The easiest way to determine which to learn first is to read over an introduction on both VBScript & C++, then read over introductions for mySQL and SQL 2005, you should then be able to pick which direction you'll take, but for some additional advice if you choose to go with VBScript then stick with SQL 2005 but if you choose to go with C++ then go with mySQL, you'll know this reason later on in your programming life.

Now you'll still have to learn ADO for both mySQL and SQL because they are both somewhat the same language they just access the information in a seperate way and just so you all know SQL stands for Structured Query Language.

hmm What else?....Oh thats right here are some more sweet things to ponder the mind on they are known as LINQ and BLINQ (pronounced Blink and Link). these are two newer languages that are being pretty much built by Polita Paulus (BLINQ) and Anders Hejlsberg (LINQ), what these two languages do is simply cut down on the amount of work you have to do in order to retrieve data out of the database, and it shows you better ways to work with and store that data, pretty much how to better optimize your database for speed, rather then relying on Caching or some other tricks.

Anyway I'm going to stop there because that should give you a bit of my personal insight into which language a person should learn, sorry if its unorganized or jumbled but have fun learning I sure have for the past 5 years or more.

Additionally Feel free to shoot some questions my way if you've got any and I'll do my best to answer then for you.

 

[casidnet]

1) You call PHP useless but you've never used it, you then say it's useless because you like ASP.net development better??

2) PHP has nothing to do with C++, it's written in C and is a C-style language though now with php 5 it has OOP done half alright.

3) You say not to use PHP because it requires the use of semi-colons at the end of lines yet recommend C++? Are you insane?

4) XHTML you say? http://www.thewebcreator.net/2007/04/16/why-you-should-be-using-html-401-instead-of-xhtml/

5) What you call SQL is actually MSSQL. MySQL wasn't developed as a free version of MSSQL it was just developed as a free RDBMS. It could be said to be as much a version of MSSQL as it was Postgresql, Informix, Oracle, Sybase, etc.

6) MSSQL isn't free, the express edition is but the standard edition starts off around $6K

7) You say data access in MSSQL is easier than MySQL. Which it isn't but thats besides the point, you suggest a little research to the reader. Really you should have done a little research BEFORE starting this post.

I'll stop there. I agree with you that people should explore more than just PHP. But if they just want a site then there is really no need, they aren't coding for the enjoyment and they will get a lot further with php and the vast quantities of free scripts out there for them to hack and copy/paste from to build what they want.

 

[Aequitas]

I was expecting some of this from at least one person so I'll address a few of the issues and state why I said what I said lol.

1) You call PHP useless but you've never used it, you then say it's useless because you like ASP.net development better??

2) PHP has nothing to do with C++, it's written in C and is a C-style language though now with php 5 it has OOP done half alright.

I call PHP useless yes because I've always loved ASP.NET but I never ever denied that it was not a powerful language, it is a very powerful language, eBay once considered using ASP.NET for their own site but took PHP instead, Not sure what they are using right now but that was in the past.

PHP has lots to do with C++, yes its a C style language but C++ was built upon that C style language.

3) You say not to use PHP because it requires the use of semi-colons at the end of lines yet recommend C++? Are you insane?

The C style language compared to VBScript is a lot more confusing, am I insane well some would say so but thats just me haha, the semi-colons are just one very small aspect that gets to me when trying to program in C or C++

4) XHTML you say?

Yes I say XHTML because HTML is no longer being updated, read up on the W3C website and you'll know that XHTML came after the last update of HTML Standards, XHTML is the new standard which is still being updated. So yes I say learn XHTML because in a way its the same as HTML but its the newer standard.

5) What you call SQL is actually MSSQL. MySQL wasn't developed as a free version of MSSQL it was just developed as a free RDBMS. It could be said to be as much a version of MSSQL as it was Postgresql, Informix, Oracle, Sybase, etc.

6) MSSQL isn't free, the express edition is but the standard edition starts off around $6K

Yes your right bad habbit SQL is actually MS SQL and your also correct about MS SQL not being free, the Express edition is free but I've never encountered something I could not do with the Express edition so why go out and spend a ton of money on the standard edition when the Express edition holds a fuck load of power.

7) You say data access in MSSQL is easier than MySQL. Which it isn't but thats besides the point, you suggest a little research to the reader.

I say MS SQL is easier then mySQL because of the slight difference when programming, not using any tools, just accessing the database all by code. Now you yourself might consider them to be equal because you might have more experince then me when dealing with mySQL, but this all falls into the category of personal preference, my personal learning experince with all of this says that yes I PERSONALLY find MS SQL easier to access then mySQL.

Really you should have done a little research BEFORE starting this post.

Those are fighting words boy haha but I do agree this post was not written as good as it could have been it was written on the fly out of my head and it deals with my own personal experinces when developing websites.

Also when you start programming quiet a bit you'll begin to do things your own way, a way in which suits you the best, there are several ways to do something when programming and every programmer has a way to do it based upon their own experince.

You know your shit yes, their is no doubting that but I don't need to do a little additional research I know how to build websites from scratch and I've always dealt with ASP.NET 2.0 and VBScript.

The post is only to get people familiar with which languages are good for web development. I personally prefer ASP.NET over anything else, it has a lot of power, just as much as PHP but then again it all depends on how you learn and what you want to really build.

 

[Squirrelinabox]

ASP.Net is generally used in conjunciton with VB.Net and C#, not VBScript and C++. C++ has nothing do with with ASP.Net and VBScript is the OLD way of doing OLD ASP whereas VB.Net is the new (as in 5+ years ago) "codebehind" way.

 

[Aequitas]

ASP.Net is generally used in conjunciton with VB.Net and C#, not VBScript and C++. C++ has nothing do with with ASP.Net and VBScript is the OLD way of doing OLD ASP whereas VB.Net is the new (as in 5+ years ago) "codebehind" way.

You can also use C++ as well as C# in conjunction with ASP.NET, heck you could use C if you wanted, basically put it depends on how much experinse you have with a language and how comfortable you are about namespaces, classes, and methods, plus some others.

 

[illusion]

Oh deary me, even though I am not a huge fan of Microsoft's products, I don't call ASP useless, you should have a little play with both languages, than write an unbiased report on the power of each instead of just trying one and saying the other is useless.

 

[ScottDaMan]

worseless. Its worseless people. Come on.

Other than that, I bow out of this thread and talk to my php programmer partner about my new idea.

 

[bubbles]

PHP is nice because you don't have to worry about variable data types, and you can change a variables data type on the fly.

The main advantage to PHP over ASP.net is that there are WAY more resources/tutorials on the net for PHP than there are for ASP.Net. Also many more hosts support PHP, and ASP.net hosting tends to be more expensive.

I also think its pretty hard to beat the LAMP (Linux Apache MySQL PHP) combination.

Plus ASP.Net is made by microsoft...

PHP was my first real language, after learning it I found it very easy to learn C++/Java. The hardest part is getting the if statement/loops etc concepts in your head, then every language is basically the same, just have to memorize new functions and syntax.

 

[Squirrelinabox]

You can also use C++ as well as C# in conjunction with ASP.NET, heck you could use C if you wanted, basically put it depends on how much experinse you have with a language and how comfortable you are about namespaces, classes, and methods, plus some others.

You can probably use just about any language with ASP.Net, but it's 99.99999% VB.Net and C#. If you are using soley C++ with ASP.Net, I have no clue what you're doing. Also, if you are using soley VBScript with ASP.Net 2.0, then in all honesty, you aren't fully grasping the potential of the technology. VB.Net and C#, that is ASP.Net. Again, VB.Net IS NOT VBScript.

 

[Aequitas]

You can probably use just about any language with ASP.Net, but it's 99.99999% VB.Net and C#. If you are using soley C++ with ASP.Net, I have no clue what you're doing. Also, if you are using soley VBScript with ASP.Net 2.0, then in all honesty, you aren't fully grasping the potential of the technology. VB.Net and C#, that is ASP.Net. Again, VB.Net IS NOT VBScript.

Exactly man I wasen't trying to say it was different, VBScript is like a tonned down version of VB.NET.....thats putting it simply.

I guess I shouldn't have expressed my frustrations with PHP haha everyone is giving me a hard time because of the useless statement......oh well live and let be haha.

I've always dealth with ASP.NET and VB.NET, also VBScript so I can do just as much shit with those languages then experinced PHP programmers can do with that language, the power and potential is there in all sorts of forms, whichever one you find easier to learn, fly at it.

 

[che1959]

MySql was developed as a free alternative, free as in freedom, not free as in free beer. Same with php.

You can program on php for free, from the OS level on up.

I'm not gonna kick ASP.Net. You can do the same with ASP.NET as with Php and vice versa. But with php, it's a lot cheaper to find hosts that support php than ASP.net.....and the name of the game is dinero my friend.

 

[Juicify]

I'm mostly programming in PHP and it's so damn much easier than the C++ that I've been doing, (2 programming classes in school).
With variables you have to define the type of each fucking variable, int, string etc. Well you have to define fucking everything before you can use it. If you are used to let's say php or javascript, c++ is just annoying because it's so much more work.

Agree on learning xhtml but stick with using html because IE doesn't support xhtml. It just reads it as html.

 

[casidnet]

Jucify, C++ is a horrible language. At last check(and it's been a while since I checked due to the fact that I HATE HATE HATE C++) it still wasn't possible to fully implement the language in a compiler because different parts of the spec conflict. If you want low level go with C, if you want enterprise and OOP go with Java, Web based I'd say php or ruby(php in the lead but I'm really liking ruby), and for admin scripts perl.

 

[Squirrelinabox]

MySql was developed as a free alternative, free as in freedom, not free as in free beer. Same with php.

You can program on php for free, from the OS level on up.

I'm not gonna kick ASP.Net. You can do the same with ASP.NET as with Php and vice versa. But with php, it's a lot cheaper to find hosts that support php than ASP.net.....and the name of the game is dinero my friend.

The name of the game is dinero... true. But with free versions of both Visual Studio AND MS SQL Server, the cost gap is nearly closed. Yes, it's still a little tougher to find hosts that support the Microsoft Technologies compared to PHP and MySql and even then, they generally charge a little more. But here's the thing, even if you were paying 100-200 bucks more a month to use a Windows Server along with a MSSQL Server, that's chump change when you think about the big picture of development. If $2000 a year is what's holding you back from choosing which environment to development in, then you're not ready to make a go at "real" development.

I'm mostly programming in PHP and it's so damn much easier than the C++ that I've been doing, (2 programming classes in school).
With variables you have to define the type of each fucking variable, int, string etc. Well you have to define fucking everything before you can use it. If you are used to let's say php or javascript, c++ is just annoying because it's so much more work.

I used to be the same way, but I'm on the C# bandwagon now. Having to define every variable has its advantages and actually, in general, leads to better performance due to the potential costs of late binding. However, if you still prefer latebinding, there's always VB.Net which supports that.

 

[ArtRage]

In case you got creamy funding for your start-up you can use any damn language and platform, throw some kilo-$$$ for Windows server, MSSQL database and stuff and have fun (till money ends).

For average newbie I'd still recommend start with PHP and learn some good php framework to get things done fast.

 

[smash]

Well I disagree with your statement as to which is better to use. For the purpose of these forums PHP and MySQL aka LAMP is probably suited better for anything your going to do.

With 11 years of programming experience and rolling out very large projects in both languages there are quite a few things you need to take into account.

-PHP can do a lot of things very easily that requires quite a bit of work in ASP and requires more client side trusts for active x controls. You'll notice active x stuff doesn't work on IE 7 as it comes out of the box. In marketing your targetting the sheep, not the smart ones....

-Hosting. You'll find better hosting deals with more resources available to you sticking with a *nix host. Windows hosting is more, MSSQL hosting is even more. Your limited on the resources and if you ever do hit it big time and have to start providing your own servers MSSQL carries a very hefty license. Yes, you can use express, but have you read the terms of the agreement and are you sticking to them? MSSQL is a beast on it's own and not nearly as friendly as MySQL. If your not a systems guy, don't try to be you'll only end up in a mess and a security cluster.

-Tools. Take a look at how many different suites of tools there are out there. You'll find hundreds of application development suits for PHP and just as many Frameworks. ASP is very limited.

-Permissions, box control, etc... If your developing in ASP.net and adding any hardcore functionality you need your own server, or admin access.

As I said, I've used both, but unless your in an Enterprise environment and you truely have access to all parts of your servers and database servers and fully understand all the security issues and access issues I wouldn't recommend an ASP.net environment. It's a lot of work to setup and a ton of work to keep secure.

The simpler route is PHP and MySQL, you'll have more hosting options and you'll get more for your money.