History Largest Protest Against Commie in Hongkong

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Hong Kong democracy protesters defy tear gas, baton charge in historic standoff | Reuters

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These protests are happening because HK people are mad over the fact that on August 31st the NPC Standing Committee in Beijing decreed that the HK will have universal suffrage for the 2017 Chief Executive ("CE") election with highly restrictive nominating procedures.

In order to be placed on the CE election ballot you have to have over 50% support of the 1200 member Nominating Committee. This essentially would screen out certain candidates that Beijing does not deem acceptable because the 1200 member Nominating Committee is elected by only 240,000 elite HK citizens who are businessmen and professionals. They're mostly Beijing loyalists, so they will elect mostly Pro Beijing Nominating Committee members. There are a total of around 5 million registered voters in HK who can vote in the Legislative Council and District Council elections. Thus having an electoral base of only 240k voters for electing the Nominating Committee disqualifies a lot of voters. If the electoral base of the Nominating Committee were to be expanded, it may be considered more acceptable to the democrats.

The Nominating Committee that nominates the CE candidates will be based off the previous Election Committees that elected the current CE in 2012. It was not a democratic election, as it was only restricted to 1200 electors who were elected by the same 240,000 elite HK votes I referenced to earlier. Only about 150 of the 1200 Election Committee members were democrats while the rest was Pro Beijing. It is very likely that the Nominating Committee for the 2017 CE election would have the same make up, and thus it would be impossible for a democrat to be ever placed on the ballot.

The democrats claim this would create a "false democracy" in Hong Kong because only CE candidates pre approved by Beijing can stand for election.

As a result Occupy Central was established and now we have these protests. It's unlikely there will be any kind of elections involving universal suffrage for the CE election in 2017 because such an amendment to the HK constitution requires two thirds majority in the legislature, approval from the Chief Executive, and approval by Beijing. The democrats control enough votes in the legislature to veto this package, which means no democracy in 2017 rather than a stage managed democracy.
 
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bluechinagroup said:
It is very likely that the Nominating Committee for the 2017 CE election would have the same make up, and thus it would be impossible for a democrat to be ever placed on the ballot.
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The kicker is, it was possible for a democrat to be placed on the CE ballot for the 2012 CE election (Democratic Party member Albert Ho ran for CE in 2012), but it was impossible for a democrat to win the 2012 CE election since it was restricted to only 1200 people rather than 5 million registered HK voters.
 
The real question here is if democracy was setup in China, is America ready to pay the price? As soon as I heard democracy protests,I thought gee wiz the white house is out to play once again.

Most if not all consumer products come from china, democracy means higher wages, higher wages means more costs. So are you ready to pay $2.50 for something that used to be $1.00.

I would want human rights, the right to vote etc for everyone, it just doesn't seem plausible that they would allow the world's "production empire's" citizens to have the right to vote all of a sudden.

*Tin Foil Hat On*
 
n8800 said:
Most if not all consumer products come from china, democracy means higher wages, higher wages means more costs. So are you ready to pay $2.50 for something that used to be $1.00.

I would want human rights, the right to vote etc for everyone, it just doesn't seem plausible that they would allow the world's "production empire's" citizens to have the right to vote all of a sudden.

*Tin Foil Hat On*
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Hong Kong and China are Apples and Oranges. HK is fully developed, a financial center and tax haven. It's not a place for cheap labour.

This is democracy for Hong Kong only, not for all of China. Under Hong Kong's constitution, the ultimate aim is to elect all seats of the legislature plus the Chief Executive of Hong Kong via universal suffrage.

Beijing agreed that Hong Kongers could elect their Chief Executive via universal Suffrage in 2017 and elect all 70 seats in the legislature by universal suffrage. Currently 40 out of 70 seats are elected via universal suffrage in the legislature, and the nominating procedures are open for the directly elected seats.

Hong Kong operates as a semi autonomous protectorate. It has its own border (I need to go through passport control to enter China), legal system, and currency. Chinese law doesn't apply, and the HK government can pass its own laws. For example Internet access isn't censored here unlike China. Taxes are low here, and the government is business friendly and pretty neo-liberal. However the HK government is a puppet government that is heavily influenced by China.
 
Let us all remember, the British throughout their rule of that island never gave true democracy, like what the protester are now asking for. The Governor was always appointed, and tight rein on the democracy process.

Only when they were about to transfer power to China, did they try to setup the facade of a democracy, which the British never truly practiced.

Just a side note, Chine eventually will collapse under its own weight, the Western countries have setup so many false traps for them.

It's almost impossible to have true prosperity with total communist rule. Eventually, the so called middle class in China are going to rise up, and demand better transparency in how the govt does things. Time will tell, but the writing is on the wall for all to see.
 
Xi Jinping brought this one on himself.

I'm living 300 meters from one of the streets blocked by protesters in Causeway Bay. It's amazing how the amount of people seems to grow larger and larger as the hours go by. I thought that they wouldn't last more than one night.

The Chinese commies in Beijing are getting nervous for sure, fucking scumbags. They have particularly bad memories with idealist students doing sit-ins to ask for more freedom and democracy.

I don't think Beijing will have the nerve to send the PLA to crackdown these protests, like they did in 1989. They would become international pariahs. The world is watching.
 
DarkWolf said:
I don't think Beijing will have the nerve to send the PLA to crackdown these protests, like they did in 1989. They would become international pariahs. The world is watching.
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China is lucky they didn't become pariahs in 1989, when the world wasn't watching. Otherwise everyone would know about it. You're right, China's super-sensitive like that.
 
charlesmartel said:
Why would you want to screw up Hong Kong with democracy? Look at what democracy has done to the US!

Democracy ≠ Freedom
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The jews stand out a little more in hong kong than they do here. Charles, I thought you were smarter than this!
 
DarkWolf said:
Xi Jinping brought this one on himself.

I'm living 300 meters from one of the streets blocked by protesters in Causeway Bay. It's amazing how the amount of people seems to grow larger and larger as the hours go by. I thought that they wouldn't last more than one night.

The Chinese commies in Beijing are getting nervous for sure, fucking scumbags. They have particularly bad memories with idealist students doing sit-ins to ask for more freedom and democracy.

I don't think Beijing will have the nerve to send the PLA to crackdown these protests, like they did in 1989. They would become international pariahs. The world is watching.
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Leaving the sarcasm aside, I disagree.

China 1989 is not the same as China 2014. Yes, the Tiananmen crackdown was after they opened up economically in the late 1970s, but the situation is different now.

For one part, Tiananmen was not only IN the mainland, where demonstrations like this are not allowed and censorship is rampant, but in Beijing itself. For a regime that puts stability and one-party rule as a key priority, having a massive pro-democracy demonstration in the capital itself is a huge face loss. Hong Kong has always been freer and stuff that would never happen in the mainland happens on a frequent basis here. So if there's one place in China where it'd logical to have a protest like this, that place is Hong Kong.

The level of international pressure would also be completely different. Inside the mainland, everyone knows that there's constant political persecution. And while you'll always have the US and its allies saying that China should have a better human rights record, no one is gonna do much if a regime that has been oppressing its people for more than half a century continues in that path. But going back to my initial point, HK is not the mainland. And if Beijing decides to turn HK into the mainland by removing the one thing that makes it unique, political freedom, then IMO China's international image would deteriorate badly.

For a country that has been consistently trying to improve its international image for the past decade to become a respectable world player, performing a Tiananmen-style crackdown in HK today would be a massive step backwards. And CCP officials know this, as much as they absolutely hate what's happening.
 
DarkWolf said:
The level of international pressure would also be completely different. Inside the mainland, everyone knows that there's constant political persecution. And while you'll always have the US and its allies saying that China should have a better human rights record, no one is gonna do much if a regime that has been oppressing its people for more than half a century continues in that path. But going back to my initial point, HK is not the mainland. And if Beijing decides to turn HK into the mainland by removing the one thing that makes it unique, political freedom, then IMO China's international image would deteriorate badly.

For a country that has been consistently trying to improve its international image for the past decade to become a respectable world player, performing a Tiananmen-style crackdown in HK today would be a massive step backwards. And CCP officials know this, as much as they absolutely hate what's happening.
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Unfortunately, I think you're wrong. China does not care about international pressure anymore, they've reached critical mass. The only reason they would care is if they lost the source of income and pride that Hong Kong adds to their country. No other country is going to start talking shit about them unless things get REALLY bad, because China supplies a lot of products.

This whole affair could get very tricky, but China needs stop blaming other countries for the mess they are creating. Just like the incursions in the south china sea, once they have set a path it will be followed. Hong Kong is a very special place and they are getting close to screwing it all up.
 
The sad thing is people are fighting for "Democracy" because they believe it's a "good" form of Government.

It's like a slave fighting for the right to be electrocuted instead of whipped. But they get to vote on the voltage/amps, and their masters will pretend they have a say in the process while laughing behind their backs - and electrocuting the shit out of them while saying "this is what you voted for".

Democracy may be more dangerous than communism - because it's still evil. It's brute force. It's collectivism and anti-individual. It's being owned with the perceived right to vote. It's the masters giving you the perception of freedom, and if you don't like the rules you should have voted, cuz it's democracy.

At least communism is sort of honest.

Democracy is the illusion of freedom and control while living under the involuntary servitude of equally evil masters.

Those bastards gassing, kidnapping and shooting at you are the essence of any Government, no matter what name you give to it they'll be there.

If you want peace and freedom, it's not a choice between what type of Government. Your rulers love that argument. Democracy is just soft-communism in sheep's clothing. If people want to be free, they should be fighting to keep the world safe FROM democracy, not for it.
 
Scott, I'm reading Mao's Great Famine at the moment. You should really read it, as it might open your eyes to what actual communism devolves into - it's not pretty and worse than the worst hell you can imagine. It's also a terrible comparison because it is capitalism, not democracy, versus communism. Whenever I read posts like that, I just think that you've never really experienced anything other than the comforts of western living but rant & rave about how bad it is.
 
Fierce said:
Unfortunately, I think you're wrong. China does not care about international pressure anymore, they've reached critical mass. The only reason they would care is if they lost the source of income and pride that Hong Kong adds to their country. No other country is going to start talking shit about them unless things get REALLY bad, because China supplies a lot of products.

This whole affair could get very tricky, but China needs stop blaming other countries for the mess they are creating. Just like the incursions in the south china sea, once they have set a path it will be followed. Hong Kong is a very special place and they are getting close to screwing it all up.
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I could very well be wrong. For some reason I still have faith in the degree to which China cares about its international image. But your example of the South China Sea incursions is spot-on. They've been bullying smaller countries like Vietnam for years and nobody cares.

If I'm wrong, then this shit could escalate quickly in the coming days. Tomorrow is the national holiday and the students set it as a deadline for the government to respond to their demands or else they'll take more measures.

As I'm writing this, PLA war planes have been spotted over Victoria Harbour and PLA officers are said to be observing the demonstrators from high rises. I really do hope this doesn't end up going terribly wrong.
 
Fierce said:
Scott, I'm reading Mao's Great Famine at the moment. You should really read it, as it might open your eyes to what actual communism devolves into - it's not pretty and worse than the worst hell you can imagine. It's also a terrible comparison because it is capitalism, not democracy, versus communism. Whenever I read posts like that, I just think that you've never really experienced anything other than the comforts of western living but rant & rave about how bad it is.
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I've read plenty on communism.

I've also studied what democracy devolves to...

I love capitalism. So do so-called democratic governments. Although I've never experienced true capitalism, my democratically elected masters get to take home around 50% of my income.

I spent over a year in Iraq "spreading democracy". I was in the military for 4 years, much closer to a dictatorship than democracy. I've been to Kuwait, Dubai, Germany, Mexico, Qatar, Canada and other countries I'm forgetting.

I'm not a guy who's stayed home with his head under the covers.

Yes, communism is terrible. So are all other Governments.

Democracy is the most profitable way to farm and exploit humans. But it always evolves into communism or a dictatorship - or worse.

Yes, I'm grateful to live in the U.S. and I know how good we have it. It could be much worse. It WILL be much worse as long as humans worship governments.

But the fact that others are forced to live under shittier masters than my own doesn't make me respect my masters. It makes me aware of what they're capable of.

All governments rely on force. They don't produce, they steal. They have the monopoly on the initiation of violence. They imprison their subjects (in fact, my "democratic" prison system would make Mao envious).

They rob their subjects of their wealth, and they are by far the biggest threat to mankind in the history of our existence. They are evil, murderous parasites that do nothing but plunder the wealth of people, murder, kidnap and create nothing of value.

Even the smallest Governments eventually grow into economic plundering merchants of death.

They are the antithesis of individual freedom.

You vastly underestimate my experience. I know exactly what governments are capable of, and that's precisely why I'm saddened when I see people fighting for "liberty" while ignorantly believing a "different" government is going to help them achieve it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for everything I have. I know how much worse it could be. I'm an advocate of true capitalism - voluntary exchange. But I see government (in any form) for what it is. I love people. Governments, no matter what form they take, are always the enemy of the people.

If you don't believe that, ask someone in Syria right now - or ask a starving kid when he signed the "social contract" to be born into $160k+ of debt.

Mao was a dick.

That's kind of the rule, not the exception, when you're talking about sociopaths.
 
I see you talk down democracy - the word is overused, twisted and manipulated between different countries. There are many shades of grey and many countries do democracy differently to America. I would say raw capitalism has made your government worse, not better.

Companies are not people, yet laws have been passed to say they are. How can you throw a company in prison if they break the law? You can't - the most you can do is shut it down which can mean no punishment or consequences at all.

Why are companies allowed to settle cases where they clearly did harm, effectively buying their way out of bad publicity when the greater good would be to set an example that they have done wrong?

Why do big companies get massive fines? It's great they do but you rarely hear of the money making its way back to the people who lost out.

These are just a few questions that make me understand why you are angry with the US version of democracy. There does need to be a middle ground though as not everyone starts off equally in life. The weaker people in society do need help and protection, something that pure capitalism will not provide.

The greatest countries on earth, came about because people pooled resources to build the economy, knowledge and infrastructure. Not everyone can or wants to be a leader, that's why free elections take place. This also allows people to specialize and get creative, which makes life easier for the whole population.

I'm afraid money has corrupted and distorted all this in the USA, it would take a hell of an effort to bring it back. At present, it is working effectively in other countries and has brought "the west" great riches.

Do I want my country to be more like Russia? Hell no.
Do I want my country to be more like China? Of course not.
 
Fierce said:
I see you talk down democracy - the word is overused, twisted and manipulated between different countries. There are many shades of grey and many countries do democracy differently to America. I would say raw capitalism has made your government worse, not better.

Companies are not people, yet laws have been passed to say they are. How can you throw a company in prison if they break the law? You can't - the most you can do is shut it down which can mean no punishment or consequences at all.

Why are companies allowed to settle cases where they clearly did harm, effectively buying their way out of bad publicity when the greater good would be to set an example that they have done wrong?

Why do big companies get massive fines? It's great they do but you rarely hear of the money making its way back to the people who lost out.

These are just a few questions that make me understand why you are angry with the US version of democracy. There does need to be a middle ground though as not everyone starts off equally in life. The weaker people in society do need help and protection, something that pure capitalism will not provide.

The greatest countries on earth, came about because people pooled resources to build the economy, knowledge and infrastructure. Not everyone can or wants to be a leader, that's why free elections take place. This also allows people to specialize and get creative, which makes life easier for the whole population.

I'm afraid money has corrupted and distorted all this in the USA, it would take a hell of an effort to bring it back. At present, it is working effectively in other countries and has brought "the west" great riches.

Do I want my country to be more like Russia? Hell no.
Do I want my country to be more like China? Of course not.
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I'm not talking down "Democracy".

I'm talking down Governments. ALL Governments have committed democide or engaged in war. With very few exceptions, if they haven't they will.

A government must steal from individuals for everything it creates. Governments send children off to die fighting wars against manufactured boogie-men for hidden agendas. They routinely aggress, kidnap and kill against their own populations.

I'm not angry.

I just see the glaring reality of Governments and history. Again, for everything a government creates, it must steal from an individual.

It's clear cut - if violence, force, kidnapping, fraud and theft are immoral, all governments are immoral by their very nature.

There's a difference between "leaders" and "rulers". Leaders don't point guns at people to force compliance.

You're right, some people in society need help. Could we better help people without waging never ending wars? Does bombing people help them? Could those in a position to do good help more people if they weren't forced to finance endless wars?

There is no "good" government.

Every government on earth relies on brutal violence to maintain power.

You really think elections aren't anything more than a dog and pony show? What's the difference between democrats and republicans?

Any smart company isn't going to screw people over. The market will take care of that problem. Companies who don't provide value won't last - with the exception of those who rely on the violence of the state to remain profitable.

Money hasn't corrupted anything.

Money could and would exist without a state. The state has the monopoly on that too. Without the legal monopoly to profit from force, theft and violence, the only way to survive is to provide value.

Money hasn't made the Government more evil. The Government has provided avenues to make evil profitable.

I'm going to stop here.

Governments kill, steal, kidnap and intimidate. Violence is their only weapon. If you don't agree that all of the above is wrong - there's no point in arguing about it.

Either hurting, killing and stealing is okay or it's not. If you agree that those are immoral, you can't logically defend government. If you have no moral issues here - I'd suggest a career in politics.
 
Fierce said:
I'm reading Mao's Great Famine at the moment. You should really read it, as it might open your eyes to what actual communism devolves into
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"Actual" communism would be stateless and classless. Mao's China was a state wherein Mao and others were seen as being a higher class.
 
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