AMA Request - Network owner or Affiliate Manger

J

JohnRichards

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Aug 12, 2014
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I find all networks very shady and I would love to have a peek behind the curtains.

Sometimes I'm getting paranoid. Networks often keep 20%-30% margin (officially) and you don't know what is going on with click shaving, conversion shaving, gradually shaving ("averaging") and so forth.

I would love to hear from an insider what shit is going on there.
Do platforms like Cake, HitPath, LinkTrust and so forth have built in functionality to shave?

I really wonder, what is the average margin % that a network keeps.
Obv. this is depending on factors like risk and volume but let's say you are sending very clean traffic (lead gen) and doing bigger volume.
 


This is free market at work.

One network wants your business more than another so they may take lower margins. Go with them if margins are an issue.

One network shaves/scrubs your shit then split test and go with the network with the highest epcs. By all means out them if you want, but you better be sure before you do that.

One networks AM treats you like shit go with another one.

Why not go with the advertisers direct? No one is forcing to use a network. But if cashflow is an issue then it might not be the smartest approach and also if you aren't willing to take on the major risk of non payment then go with the advertiser and/or a low end network (although this can realistically happen with any network, even the biggest ones, but overall your risk over time is substantially lowered).

If you can't see the value a network brings to the table then you are not forced to use them. Margins are a buffer to risk and the higher the risk the higher the margin, and seeing as a lot of the networks main income is derived from nutra/rebills the risk is super high.

You shouldn't waste your energy on this stuff if you want to be successful, just worry about building profitable campaigns and then scaling them.
 
Right now I'm in a position where I can & want to get this shit sorted once and for all.
Split testing is a lot of work, so is going direct I guess (never tried it!).

Regarding split testing, I think the problem is that networks are aware of that.
Now here is how it goes in my Opinion:

You run an offer with Network A) at $10. Network B) gives you a raise to $11 but after day 3 they start shaving you by 5,10,then 15%.. After a week you notice it's doing worse on average than Network A)'s link.

Here's another one:
Network B) gives you a raise to $11 but they will stop counting 15% of the clicks. The CPC in their network looks awesome. Eventually this or a combination of both happens gradually (not from day one but you will notice after a week).

I've seen networks offering more CPA than the advertiser pays them (and then shave)

Also, what should be the going rate for network margins %?
How much are they "supposed" to keep? What do you consider a low or a high margin?

Personally I think 20% is a ripoff if your traffic is clean (low risk) and you do some volume. I don't run any rebills.
 
If you have campaigns and they can be scaled, be the offer owner.

Or if its lead gen to a product or service that is beyond your scope, categorize your leads as they come in, then sell the leads direct to similar competitors.
 
JohnRichards said:
Right now I'm in a position where I can & want to get this shit sorted once and for all.
Split testing is a lot of work, so is going direct I guess (never tried it!).

Regarding split testing, I think the problem is that networks are aware of that.
Now here is how it goes in my Opinion:

You run an offer with Network A) at $10. Network B) gives you a raise to $11 but after day 3 they start shaving you by 5,10,then 15%.. After a week you notice it's doing worse on average than Network A)'s link.

Here's another one:
Network B) gives you a raise to $11 but they will stop counting 15% of the clicks. The CPC in their network looks awesome. Eventually this or a combination of both happens gradually (not from day one but you will notice after a week).

I've seen networks offering more CPA than the advertiser pays them (and then shave)

Also, what should be the going rate for network margins %?
How much are they "supposed" to keep? What do you consider a low or a high margin?

Personally I think 20% is a ripoff if your traffic is clean (low risk) and you do some volume. I don't run any rebills.
Click to expand...

Stop being a whinny baby. You will NEVER succeed in this biz if you don't adjust your attitude.

Split testing is not a lot of work, its a fucking MUST in this biz. If you're not split testing then you are going nowhere in IM.

You should run for a few days and if you see a network starts to shave/scrub down to an unprofitable level then either have a word with them or dump them.

One day you are going to realise that payout means shit, only the epcs matter (after sending some volume).

Why are you still harping on about margins? What the fuck does it have to do with you making money? Don't like their margins then go direct or find someone else. What they make is their business and will be dependent on market forces. You are aware that they will also pay you more (reduce their margins) if you give them volume/quality and have the balls to negotiate?

Every failing affiliate asks the same questions you are asking, but at one point they either quit IM or realise that bitching and moaning doesn't get you anywhere, you just need to concentrate on testing and scaling.
 
I run an incentive offer site... and as far that I can see on my side, most non-scam networks should credit about the same. What people often perceive as shaving is just invalid leads that the advertiser doesn't credit. People with high quality traffic have high crediting rates, people with low quality traffic have lower conversion rates. When an offer doesn't credit well, it more often appears to be the advertiser, not the network. So a bad crediting offer on network A is still likely shit on network B. Also, there is a factor about how much an advertiser likes the traffic it's receiving or if they are about to end their campaign. When advertiser is about to end their campaign, they will start crediting like shit and revoking everything.

Overall, if you're not dealing with scam networks, crediting should be similar... the quality of the traffic you provide and the landing pages and the advertiser itself are typically bigger variables.
 
Tangible said:
I run an incentive offer site... and as far that I can see on my side, most non-scam networks should credit about the same. What people often perceive as shaving is just invalid leads that the advertiser doesn't credit. People with high quality traffic have high crediting rates, people with low quality traffic have lower conversion rates. When an offer doesn't credit well, it more often appears to be the advertiser, not the network. So a bad crediting offer on network A is still likely shit on network B. Also, there is a factor about how much an advertiser likes the traffic it's receiving or if they are about to end their campaign. When advertiser is about to end their campaign, they will start crediting like shit and revoking everything.

Overall, if you're not dealing with scam networks, crediting should be similar... the quality of the traffic you provide and the landing pages and the advertiser itself are typically bigger variables.
Click to expand...

Yes I was referring to different results on the same offer among various "reputable" networks. So you think those are simply scam networks?
I agree with you but that's the problem, all networks out there seem to be "scam networks"
 
@nickster, I don't want to tell too much about what I'm doing (I've lurked enough here to know that it's not appreciated). All I'm saying is, as I pointed out earlier, I'm in a position where I want to get this sorted.

If anyone has insight about network margins and so forth then I would be curious to learn.
 
dynamicsoul said:
If you have campaigns and they can be scaled, be the offer owner.

Or if its lead gen to a product or service that is beyond your scope, categorize your leads as they come in, then sell the leads direct to similar competitors.
Click to expand...

Where do you find competitors to sell leads to?
 
Plenty of reps on here from various (very reputable) networks, why not drop them a pm. I've always found guys like Eli and Maxsteve (to name but two) to be very easy to deal with, willing to help and answer questions.

Then again though, you have basically called all netwroks shady, and:

Sometimes I'm getting paranoid. Networks often keep 20%-30% margin (officially) and you don't know what is going on with click shaving, conversion shaving, gradually shaving ("averaging") and so forth.
Click to expand...
Are you going to believe anything they tell you anyway. Maybe if you had come at this line of questioning a little differently you may have (maybe) recieved some of the info you were looking for. As it stands, I doubt it now.

suddenlyass1010.jpg
http://uk.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 
JohnRichards said:
Yes I was referring to different results on the same offer among various "reputable" networks. So you think those are simply scam networks?
I agree with you but that's the problem, all networks out there seem to be "scam networks"
Click to expand...

Most good networks are looking at the long term picture vs the short term come up of running away with your money. If you convert at a good rate, you are likely to stay loyal to the network, more likely to drive more traffic and more likely to make the network more money in the long run.

Contrary to the belief of skeptical affiliates, most networks who want to be around forever are better served by offers crediting perfectly rather than shaving leads. The better results your affiliates have, the more likely they are to build up your business, why the hell would you want to shave?

Now who actually has the most incentive to shave leads? The advertisers.
 
Tangible said:
Most good networks are looking at the long term picture vs the short term come up of running away with your money. If you convert at a good rate, you are likely to stay loyal to the network, more likely to drive more traffic and more likely to make the network more money in the long run.

Contrary to the belief of skeptical affiliates, most networks who want to be around forever are better served by offers crediting perfectly rather than shaving leads. The better results your affiliates have, the more likely they are to build up your business, why the hell would you want to shave?

Now who actually has the most incentive to shave leads? The advertisers.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. Maybe I'm just paranoid.
Anyway I'm still curious what the margins are where the networks still feel like they are a good samaritan.
 
So, let's see, you run Incent, and you accuse/think ALL networks are both )shady, and B) get at least 20-30% margins, (while apparently also robbing you), yet all are doing it at the same consistent level through some "conspiracy" between all these shady networks?

Also, you don't want to do any split-testing, so you base your judgment on the Networks being (all) the bad guys on, what, that you feel like you should be making more profits off your Incent traffic? You say you couuld go direct (good luck on that in the Incent world btw), but have zero idea of what your traffic is worth because you've never done that, never owned an offer, and never split-test between different Networks on the same offer/traffic?

Hmm... Yea, you are going to do well, I can see.
 
Guys, I do split testing.
What I was trying to say is that split testing is not a permanent solution to this problem.

Now let's look at that: You all tell me to split test, plus you seem very calm regarding this topic..
This makes me think that many of you might not be aware of the problem. If you would understand the problem you would not tell me to split test.

I'm not trying to step on anybody's foot here but maybe you guys don't do it correctly.
I don't know what software you are using and what "prosper 202" is capable of, but did you ever look on hourly graphs/charts of clicks, conversions and so forth?
I can imagine that you only look on average conversions when comparing links.. and this is B/S of course.
Look, so you split Network A) and B) today.. So, B) was better and you point to them. 3 Days later the assholes start shaving. What's your fucking point?
You would only detect shaving when it's too late when only looking on averages. And I believe that this is what the networks are counting on.

Split testing is not a solution to this problem. You would constantly have to send significant amount of traffic to the "shit links" just to have comparable data.

Now my question was actually a rather simple one.. I was simply asking what the network margins are?

mont7071 said:
So, let's see, you run Incent, and you accuse/think ALL networks are both )shady, and B) get at least 20-30% margins, (while apparently also robbing you), yet all are doing it at the same consistent level through some "conspiracy" between all these shady networks?

Also, you don't want to do any split-testing, so you base your judgment on the Networks being (all) the bad guys on, what, that you feel like you should be making more profits off your Incent traffic? You say you couuld go direct (good luck on that in the Incent world btw), but have zero idea of what your traffic is worth because you've never done that, never owned an offer, and never split-test between different Networks on the same offer/traffic?

Hmm... Yea, you are going to do well, I can see.
Click to expand...

Calm down son, I'm not running incent, the other poster did.
 
JohnRichards said:
Guys, I do split testing.
What I was trying to say is that split testing is not a permanent solution to this problem.

Now let's look at that: You all tell me to split test, plus you seem very calm regarding this topic..
This makes me think that many of you might not be aware of the problem. If you would understand the problem you would not tell me to split test.

I'm not trying to step on anybody's foot here but maybe you guys don't do it correctly.
I don't know what software you are using and what "prosper 202" is capable of, but did you ever look on hourly graphs/charts of clicks, conversions and so forth?
I can imagine that you only look on average conversions when comparing links.. and this is B/S of course.
Look, so you split Network A) and B) today.. So, B) was better and you point to them. 3 Days later the assholes start shaving. What's your fucking point?
You would only detect shaving when it's too late when only looking on averages. And I believe that this is what the networks are counting on.

Split testing is not a solution to this problem. You would constantly have to send significant amount of traffic to the "shit links" just to have comparable data.

Now my question was actually a rather simple one.. I was simply asking what the network margins are?
Click to expand...

Quit while you are behind, you are just too dumb for this business (and thats saying something).
 
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