All this over a 30$ Job and I don't even know who wants to sue me.
- Thread starter kblessinggr
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I agree with you and was the same point I felt like I was making. I'm writing all this from my iPhone so I may have not been able to be as clear.
This thread is full of fun. Lots of interesting points. As a designer, I work with two restaraunteers that each own about 5 restaurants/resorts. They fucking hate each other. If I ever used one bit of one design I did for the other, there would be hell to pay. I'd be out two good clients and one of them would be suing the other.
On the other hand, pretty much every business up here is "North Idaho Something Or Other" and they all want, suprisingly enough, the shape of the state of Idaho in their logo. You're fucking insane if you think I retrace the state of Idaho every time I need to use it, especially since I sat down one day and spent a half hour with a topo map redrawing it perfectly (Lewis and Clark were fucking lost as hell, btw) so I'd have a good master copy. But I never would have drawn it all if that first "North Idaho Something" company hadn't walked in the door back in '04 looking for a logo and some truck graphics.
Like I said, interesting discussion. Lots of points and counterpoints to consider.
And from where I'm sitting, JohnnyCakes or wtfevah his name is bought the script from Karl for $30 and then sold it to someone else with exclusive rights for much, much more. And now he's shitting bricks because they're coming down on him for reselling it when they paid him appropriately for exclusivity.
On the other hand, pretty much every business up here is "North Idaho Something Or Other" and they all want, suprisingly enough, the shape of the state of Idaho in their logo. You're fucking insane if you think I retrace the state of Idaho every time I need to use it, especially since I sat down one day and spent a half hour with a topo map redrawing it perfectly (Lewis and Clark were fucking lost as hell, btw) so I'd have a good master copy. But I never would have drawn it all if that first "North Idaho Something" company hadn't walked in the door back in '04 looking for a logo and some truck graphics.
Like I said, interesting discussion. Lots of points and counterpoints to consider.
And from where I'm sitting, JohnnyCakes or wtfevah his name is bought the script from Karl for $30 and then sold it to someone else with exclusive rights for much, much more. And now he's shitting bricks because they're coming down on him for reselling it when they paid him appropriately for exclusivity.
JohnnyPal is asking you to hand over exclusive rights to a generic one-line script that he paid $30 for, without ever having discussed exclusiveness before.
He then uses a secret psycho magick tacktick that is supposed to make it sound like this ridiculous case is going to ruin you, and that in fact he is doing you a favor.
Think about it.
My first MVC (model-view-controller) framework was developed to help create a web application for a client. You better believe I reused that framework in lots of other projects and when I improved it in future ones, I came back to the first client and made improvements in his version. The client did not pay me to develop a framework, I developed a framework as a tool to do his job. I owned that tool, it made future work for him faster and cheaper, and building another framework to do the exact same thing would have been retarded.
I don't know how all this programming stuff works but I do know how the building world works.
If John doe hires me to put an addition on his house and the cost is of no importance. He pays me for my knowledge and tools to build his addition. John doe now owns the addition to his house but does not own the knowledge of me building it for him. If asked he can ask that I do not use this particular design to build another one just like. He can not though stop me from building an addition on his neighbors house using a different design.
The same basic concept with programing Karl sold the guy a solution to his problem. That was it. Now you are telling me that programing doesn't use the same building block to build it. I mean come on when I build a house and put the studs 16 inches on center does that mean that I have to change it to 16 and quarter inches on the next house because he owns it??? Hell NO!!!!! All Karl did was show the guy how to put his legos together and know the guy wants karl not to play with legos anymore!!
Karl you are in the right here both legally and ethically.. Come on people it is just building blocks put together to make a structure. that is it.
If John doe hires me to put an addition on his house and the cost is of no importance. He pays me for my knowledge and tools to build his addition. John doe now owns the addition to his house but does not own the knowledge of me building it for him. If asked he can ask that I do not use this particular design to build another one just like. He can not though stop me from building an addition on his neighbors house using a different design.
The same basic concept with programing Karl sold the guy a solution to his problem. That was it. Now you are telling me that programing doesn't use the same building block to build it. I mean come on when I build a house and put the studs 16 inches on center does that mean that I have to change it to 16 and quarter inches on the next house because he owns it??? Hell NO!!!!! All Karl did was show the guy how to put his legos together and know the guy wants karl not to play with legos anymore!!
Karl you are in the right here both legally and ethically.. Come on people it is just building blocks put together to make a structure. that is it.
To add to the post above:
So you are telling me that when I built the addition for john doe I have to give him my tools too when the job is done. That sounds kinda fishy to me. As mentioned above we all have a tool belt full of tools to use and we don't have to give them to the customer when done unless it is in the contract. But if I want to sell them otherwise that is my option and john doe can't sue me for selling the tools I used to build his addition.
Oh well that is my two cents worth....
I don't know it all and don't sat that I do...I just take it one step at a time.
So you are telling me that when I built the addition for john doe I have to give him my tools too when the job is done. That sounds kinda fishy to me. As mentioned above we all have a tool belt full of tools to use and we don't have to give them to the customer when done unless it is in the contract. But if I want to sell them otherwise that is my option and john doe can't sue me for selling the tools I used to build his addition.
Oh well that is my two cents worth....
I don't know it all and don't sat that I do...I just take it one step at a time.
I dint read all the posts of Page 2 but i wanted to know the following from the OP.
1. The little extra cash he gave you was it mentioned that this is being "extra" to cover up the resale rights?
2. Did you issue any invoice mentioning "resale rights included"?
3. Did you pay any tax/VAT to your government (assuming you need to pay for every sale you make for business purpose in your country)?
I would say.....enjoy bringing up your kid and congrats for the same and forget the lawsuit unless its only a "threat" via email.
1. The little extra cash he gave you was it mentioned that this is being "extra" to cover up the resale rights?
2. Did you issue any invoice mentioning "resale rights included"?
3. Did you pay any tax/VAT to your government (assuming you need to pay for every sale you make for business purpose in your country)?
I would say.....enjoy bringing up your kid and congrats for the same and forget the lawsuit unless its only a "threat" via email.
This is really going to piss you all off.
If Karl rewrites this in Ruby/Jscript or in ASP/Aspscript does the same quandary exist?
Muahaha
/Devils Advocate
If Karl rewrites this in Ruby/Jscript or in ASP/Aspscript does the same quandary exist?
Muahaha
/Devils Advocate
Decide if you want to fight it or not.
If you do, then your only response to any email or contact is that you have nothing to discuss regarding the matter and that you will only deal with actual legal documentation and or court.
Otherwise all you are doing with each contact is providing more evidence to be used against you.
Now will people here like you or be mad? Maybe. Probably. Who knows. They had enough power to get a thread pulled on a whim. So that's up to you.
There are also people who seem to be rooting for you too so it doesn't look like you will be completely out of work.
As far a court goes:
1. There is no stipulation in the contract.
2. What you did is provided elsewhere.
3. It it a rewritten script and not the same provided to the buyer.
4. You stated you would/could/might sell it.
As far as the other party goes, in court they would be considered a third party meddler. And you are not obliged to contract with a thrid party.
Now if they have money they can get paper pushers to make you think you have to oblige but legally you do not. You have to know the law yourself and state it as so or get your own paper pusher to state the law for you.
just think about this, if it was another person who posted a script with the same functions nothing could be said, but by you selling the script here you are pissing in the pool ruining it for you and for the other parties involved.
Also this thread isn't a good look. You don't know who all the parties involved are and if you fight this they might hold a grudge.
If you can deal with that then repost the script and keep it moving. Otherwise bowdown.
Things to consider;
1. Potential income form the script vs cost of court.
2. Relationships on WF and the web community and how they can impact your imcome.
Keep in mind, that in court morals and ethics do not matter only law.
If you do, then your only response to any email or contact is that you have nothing to discuss regarding the matter and that you will only deal with actual legal documentation and or court.
Otherwise all you are doing with each contact is providing more evidence to be used against you.
Now will people here like you or be mad? Maybe. Probably. Who knows. They had enough power to get a thread pulled on a whim. So that's up to you.
There are also people who seem to be rooting for you too so it doesn't look like you will be completely out of work.
As far a court goes:
1. There is no stipulation in the contract.
2. What you did is provided elsewhere.
3. It it a rewritten script and not the same provided to the buyer.
4. You stated you would/could/might sell it.
As far as the other party goes, in court they would be considered a third party meddler. And you are not obliged to contract with a thrid party.
Now if they have money they can get paper pushers to make you think you have to oblige but legally you do not. You have to know the law yourself and state it as so or get your own paper pusher to state the law for you.
just think about this, if it was another person who posted a script with the same functions nothing could be said, but by you selling the script here you are pissing in the pool ruining it for you and for the other parties involved.
Also this thread isn't a good look. You don't know who all the parties involved are and if you fight this they might hold a grudge.
If you can deal with that then repost the script and keep it moving. Otherwise bowdown.
Things to consider;
1. Potential income form the script vs cost of court.
2. Relationships on WF and the web community and how they can impact your imcome.
Keep in mind, that in court morals and ethics do not matter only law.
If this case ever went to court, you would have the right to know exactly who Doobly Goobly is. Defendants have the right in the legal system to know and to face his accuser, so there will be no more hiding behind the computer.
What gets me is how vague it is, and I doubt there's a case at all. Karl was asked to do some work, and he was paid for some work. I doubt very much the bill of sale stipulates that all code is now 100% owned by the client.
If you guys went to Judge Judy to fight it out, she wouldn't be interested in the coder's arsenal or methods; she'll ask for a bill of sale stipulating that the work included rights to the software. All that could be produced as far as I can see is a Paypal receipt for some unspecified work, services of a kind. Nothing that describes what was purchased. Case dismissed.
Just to clear two points up (oh and I'm not a lawyer, but I used to deal with contracts a lot):
- There definitely is a contract in place. Just because you didn't sign a contract with the word "CONTRACT" at the top doesn't stop it being one. Contracts can -- and are -- defined by you and your client's behaviour all the time.
- Your contract is with JohnnyPaypal, or whatever his name is. If "Doobly Goobly" wants to sue anyone then it has to be Mr. Johnny middleman; you didn't contract with them and have no relationship with them.
- If JohhnyPaypal then wants to sue you to recover his losses, then that's up to him.
Turn the TV off, that right is for criminal defendants. Karl or his company would simply be a defendant of a civil suit (or whatever the state in question calls it. He has no right whatsoever to know who dobbly whatever is.
Everyone can quit acting like they know what the fuck they're talking about from a 'legal' standpoint. Almost every state is different in how they legislate this sort of issue, 99% of the 'legal' advice in this thread is wrong. Stick to facebook ads and fapping it to 4chan...
That's not even a reasonable analogy. If I hire Karl to write a plugin, and he in turn "uses his knowledge" to write a competing plugin, I have claim, even without a non-compete. You have no idea how often this happens in real life.
The bottom line is most of the opinions in this thread are small time developers who have never even touched a 6-figure project, much less an 8-figure project. In 2005, I watched 2 surety bonding companies go at it over an issue much simpler than Karl's, in September 2009, guess what... It's still going on in court.. This sort of thing is so fucking common and the results vary as much as the IQs in this thread do.
Then your business model needs an upgrade. "non disclosure" and "non compete" for any good programmer is a no brainer for the programmer to sign, he wants your business. You pay for his time and expertise, not for the IP rights. You get those inherently.
There are already plenty of opinions already on this situation and I won't pretend to offer anything better. However several freelancers I've hired state that they'll own partial rights to their work and reserve the right to reuse their work in other projects or sell their work.
Being a believer in open and free code I have no problem with this personally. I'm hiring them to do work I can't do or don't have time to do and as long as I get my code I'm fine. Even if they turn around and put up for free what I paid $80 to have made, I got exactly what I paid for. They're not an employee of my business, just a freelancer for hire.
Being a believer in open and free code I have no problem with this personally. I'm hiring them to do work I can't do or don't have time to do and as long as I get my code I'm fine. Even if they turn around and put up for free what I paid $80 to have made, I got exactly what I paid for. They're not an employee of my business, just a freelancer for hire.
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